Author Topic: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth  (Read 7445 times)

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Offline angalton

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2017, 12:35:20 PM »
Coach Arnold needs his own column here on DumCoach.

--Dave

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Offline Monster

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2017, 03:59:13 PM »
Sorry to bring this "back from the dead" so to speak, but I'm wondering how a MIKE in a 00 Tech over the top of a DT in a 0 Tech is blocked.

I see a lot of 5-3 defenses and the MIKE will walk down into an A gap prior to snap with the NT maintaining his 0 Tech. If the MIKE walks to the playside A, who has him?

Also, who takes the 3 Tech on playside?

Let's assume that I have a TE, a Wing and an H back.

I'll try to diagram something up when I'm not on my phone.

Thanks!
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Offline blockandtackle

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2017, 04:36:35 PM »
Sorry to bring this "back from the dead" so to speak, but I'm wondering how a MIKE in a 00 Tech over the top of a DT in a 0 Tech is blocked.

I see a lot of 5-3 defenses and the MIKE will walk down into an A gap prior to snap with the NT maintaining his 0 Tech. If the MIKE walks to the playside A, who has him?

Also, who takes the 3 Tech on playside?

Let's assume that I have a TE, a Wing and an H back.

I'll try to diagram something up when I'm not on my phone.

Thanks!

The key idea here is that each OL will step play side and block what's in the play side gap, working up through the 2nd level if nothing shows.  Draw up any defense you've got against that and it should become pretty obvious who should wind up blocking who.

If a defense is assigning more than 1 guy to each gap, either they're not sound (so your OL who has the uncovered gap can just follow his track on up to the 2nd level and pin that guy while the RB winds it back) or they've got a numbers advantage inside that no zone blocking scheme will fix.

The C blocks play side A gap.  The whole line will step play side and have their eyes in the play side gap.  If the Mike walks up or tries to run through play side A, even with a head up NG, the C will step that way and block him.  The BSG will be stepping play side and will block the 0 tech NG, who is now backside A gap by default since the C has gone over there to get the walked up LB.

If there's a 3 tech play side, the PSG will base him out since he's in the G's play side gap.  That's simple.

If you have a TE and a WB with an H-Back in there, too, the TE will block play side D gap and you can have the WB block play side E gap.

You can do a lot of different things with the WB and H-Back to insert them into the play elsewhere.  Exactly how you want to do that just depends on how you want to play it, but that will add a little complexity.  One pretty simple thing you could do would be to set the WB or H-back opposite of the TE to get 8 gaps and a balanced look, then have that guy step to play side C gap and zone whatever's there while the H-Back kicks out the BSDE in backside D gap.

One of our favorite things is to play with a TE and an H-Back lined up as a wing on the same side.  When we run zone from this look, the WB will just block E-gap in the base scheme, but we like to tag it to have the HB come across the formation behind the LOS to kick out the BSDE or chip him and get to the flat for a bootleg.

You can also insert the H-back into the hole as a lead blocker or have him kick the BSDE or go to the flat.  You can also tag the play to have the BST base out and insert the H-Back inside of him to get an Iso blocking scheme.

There's just all kinds of things you can do with the WB and H-Back.  It's limited mostly by your imagination.  The good thing is that it stays simple for your OL.  For them, zone is zone.  You might tag it to tell one lineman to block his backside gap instead of his play side gap, but it's still going to be very simple.

Now, against a 5-3, this may or may not be a good play to run.  If they're in a 3-0-3 look with a LB walked up into an A gap, that's just a lot of bodies in the middle so the inside zone will be congested.  You will likely be better off running off tackle or outside with outside zone, power, counter, sweep, outside veer, etc.  Or try to formation the defense out of a 5-3 with some type of 1 back set that forces them to remove defenders in order to cover everybody, even if all you're doing is throwing a 3-4 yard hitch to the uncovered man.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 04:44:42 PM by coacharnold »

Offline somecoach

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2017, 01:56:03 AM »
Sorry to bring this "back from the dead" so to speak, but I'm wondering how a MIKE in a 00 Tech over the top of a DT in a 0 Tech is blocked.

I see a lot of 5-3 defenses and the MIKE will walk down into an A gap prior to snap with the NT maintaining his 0 Tech. If the MIKE walks to the playside A, who has him?

Also, who takes the 3 Tech on playside?

Let's assume that I have a TE, a Wing and an H back.

I'll try to diagram something up when I'm not on my phone.

Thanks!

I love reviving dead threads!
Why wonder what the author was thinking when you can ask him directly!

Ironically my DC decided to roll into a similar look during our intra-squad scrimmage to combat our inside zone scheme.

My solution was basically to down block everything and have the ball cut all the way back.
The center would take his usual zone step playside and take who ever showed up. If it was the mike, he would take the mike (and the backside guard would take the nose). If it was the nose he would take the nose and the guard would go up for backer.

The play side guard would kickout the 3 tech.

If the mike and nose overloaded the play side A gap, it didn't matter if the mike got free because the ball should cut back (and it did)

As for the tight end, wing and h back they could block their play side gap/ or kickout the backside emol to create a split zone play.
(as well as insert into the line for a zone lead look)

This 8 man box also opened up the passing game.

but I'm assuming you have something that looks like this?:

                        F
  C           W              S
          E     T     NM  T       E     C
X             O  O  O  O  O  Y
                              H        W
                       Q
                       T

In the above case I would do as I said with the offensive line.
The Y and W will block their gaps and the H would block the backside End to create a split flow.
The tailback is going to cut it back behind the left tackle

Hopefully the Will flows into the arms of the left guard by covering the backside A gap.

If I was to run zone weak, the Y and W would block down and the H would kick out the corner, this would open up a giant cutback lane for the runner between the runner and the kickout.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2017, 02:10:34 AM »
If they stack the filed like this?  Crack down Weak, Deuce, and Jet!  Make that Weak Side Corner be a Stud! 

Strong Side Toss Sweep.  As SC said everyone down blocks Y to S, W to E, H to C. T uses the H block!   


So says the Static View!    8)
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Offline Monster

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2017, 03:09:50 PM »
Okay coach, you - and the other folks who responded - gave me a ton of information. Only issue is that I may be too underinformed to be able to figure it all out. Let me break down your response in chunks...

The key idea here is that each OL will step play side and block what's in the play side gap, working up through the 2nd level if nothing shows.  Draw up any defense you've got against that and it should become pretty obvious who should wind up blocking who.

If a defense is assigning more than 1 guy to each gap, either they're not sound (so your OL who has the uncovered gap can just follow his track on up to the 2nd level and pin that guy while the RB winds it back) or they've got a numbers advantage inside that no zone blocking scheme will fix.

The C blocks play side A gap.  The whole line will step play side and have their eyes in the play side gap.  If the Mike walks up or tries to run through play side A, even with a head up NG, the C will step that way and block him.  The BSG will be stepping play side and will block the 0 tech NG, who is now backside A gap by default since the C has gone over there to get the walked up LB.

If there's a 3 tech play side, the PSG will base him out since he's in the G's play side gap.  That's simple.
Quote

Okay, this I can understand. Let's build on this with an IZ (a play that I am assuming since I'm not that well versed in Zone is designed to hit from B gap "back") and start from our interior three blockers...


----M

----N------T

----C----
Gb----Gp


In this scenario, the three defenders are accounted for regardless of where they go. This is due to each OL being coached to step playside first and attack whoever shows.

Gb is coached to step towards N in anticipation of N aiming for the backside A gap. If N does not show, then Gb's needs to know to continue up along his playside track (a 45 degree angle?) towards the next Defender in his path. In our case, this will most likely be M.

C is coached to step playside in anticipation of N aiming for the playside A gap.

Now! This is where I need plain communication. Provided that N does not show and goes backside, and C's first step has positioned him such that M is now "behind the play", does C continue along his track and allowing M to go unblocked if M sits and reads? Or does C need to do a read to notice a "stack" look and know that either N or M is his so he needs to step playside and take whichever one of those guys comes to him?

I'll attempt to make the diagram below illustrate what state the play is in at one step after the snap.

-------M
----N---------T
---Gb---C--Gp


Now, what is the next step here? Does the Back need to read the pursuit of M and cut back using Gb's block? Or is he coached to know that since the B gap is occupied by the 3T, that he should come inside of Gp?


If you have a TE and a WB with an H-Back in there, too, the TE will block play side D gap and you can have the WB block play side E gap.

You can do a lot of different things with the WB and H-Back to insert them into the play elsewhere.  Exactly how you want to do that just depends on how you want to play it, but that will add a little complexity.  One pretty simple thing you could do would be to set the WB or H-back opposite of the TE to get 8 gaps and a balanced look, then have that guy step to play side C gap and zone whatever's there while the H-Back kicks out the BSDE in backside D gap.


So let's talk formation here. I'm more of a fan of a balanced look that goes unbalanced post-snap (Isn't this what is called Power due to Gb pulling up and through?) so let me set that up...


----------------------------M----------S

----------------------T-----N------T-----------E
----------------------------C----
----------Z--------Tb--Gb----Gp--Tp----Y
----------------H----------Q---------------W
-----------------------------
----------------------------B


So for this, I'm wondering if Gp can be coached on IZ, or "Tight" or "Inside" or whatever you want to call it, that if B gap is occupied then make a call where C and Gp block towards the backside and Gb pulls and wraps playside. That way, the first thing that Gp looks at as he approaches the LOS is whether or not there is someone in the B gap. Yes? Make the call to bring Gb over. This would look almost like a Trap but without any "counter steps" by B.

Of course, if this is a call best made by the Sideline, I'd like to know that as well.

One of our favorite things is to play with a TE and an H-Back lined up as a wing on the same side.  When we run zone from this look, the WB will just block E-gap in the base scheme, but we like to tag it to have the HB come across the formation behind the LOS to kick out the BSDE or chip him and get to the flat for a bootleg.

You can also insert the H-back into the hole as a lead blocker or have him kick the BSDE or go to the flat.  You can also tag the play to have the BST base out and insert the H-Back inside of him to get an Iso blocking scheme.

There's just all kinds of things you can do with the WB and H-Back.  It's limited mostly by your imagination.  The good thing is that it stays simple for your OL.  For them, zone is zone.  You might tag it to tell one lineman to block his backside gap instead of his play side gap, but it's still going to be very simple.

Now, against a 5-3, this may or may not be a good play to run.  If they're in a 3-0-3 look with a LB walked up into an A gap, that's just a lot of bodies in the middle so the inside zone will be congested.  You will likely be better off running off tackle or outside with outside zone, power, counter, sweep, outside veer, etc.  Or try to formation the defense out of a 5-3 with some type of 1 back set that forces them to remove defenders in order to cover everybody, even if all you're doing is throwing a 3-4 yard hitch to the uncovered man.

I'll leave my questions to those two for now. Thanks again to you and anyone else that wants to chime in.
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Offline blockandtackle

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2017, 04:53:34 PM »
Monster,

In the first scenario, where NG slants backside but the MLB doesn't move and stays head up on where the C was, what will happen is the C steps play side, sees there's nothing there (since the 3 tech is being based out by the G) and the C will then work up "through the cylinder" and block the first thing that shows.  Here, that's going to be the MLB.  So MLB still gets blocked while the BSG will block the NG who slants away.

As for wrapping the BSG through play side B gap while the PSG and C block back, we have a play to do that, but it's not zone.  The footwork and technique winds up being radically different for 3 of the 5 linemen and the RB also gets a different read here, so I'd just teach it and call it as a different play.  I don't like using the "fan and fold" stuff on zone.  We used to have a line call in there against a backside 3 tech to have the G block back on the 3 while the T would fold underneath through backside A gap, but it I never cared for it for several reasons.

For us, our version of the play that wraps the BSG to LB is called "Gut" and it's built off a combination of Trap and Iso rules:  C on back basically blocks "Trap" while the play side of the line will base out.  We just part the seas at the bubble (PSG will make a call) and wrap the BSG through the hole (either A or B gap).

What I like about zone is the simplicity and soundness.  When you start messing with it too much, you lose that.  About the only tag we have that will change anything for the OL is a "Solid" call to base out the BSDE with the T and have the BSG base the BSDT.  The other tags we use may change the QB's read or insert an H-Back into the play, but the OL's stuff stays consistent.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 04:56:35 PM by coacharnold »

Offline Monster

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2017, 07:15:31 PM »
Monster,

...

What I like about zone is the simplicity and soundness.  When you start messing with it too much, you lose that.  About the only tag we have that will change anything for the OL is a "Solid" call to base out the BSDE with the T and have the BSG base the BSDT.  The other tags we use may change the QB's read or insert an H-Back into the play, but the OL's stuff stays consistent.

And that simplicity is what I want to start with. I'm not trying to make things more complicated/ layered/ difficult than they need be.

I'm just trying to get an understanding of the best way to run an Off Tackle play with the simplest design possible. Seems to me that Zone is the best way to do that.
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Offline blockandtackle

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2017, 02:14:46 AM »
And that simplicity is what I want to start with. I'm not trying to make things more complicated/ layered/ difficult than they need be.

I'm just trying to get an understanding of the best way to run an Off Tackle play with the simplest design possible. Seems to me that Zone is the best way to do that.

Inside Zone, in its original form, is really designed to hit in A or B gap.  You can also tag the backfield action to hit off tackle to the "backside" DE for a speed option/zone counter/inverted veer/whatever and hit in the off tackle area if you zone away from a B gap bubble, but that is what it is.

Outside Zone can hit B/C/D gap, depending on what the RB's read is.  It's a great play in its own right.  However, it's not what most people think of in terms of "off tackle" with the block down/kick out schemes that are more popular for hitting the off tackle area.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2017, 01:56:03 PM »
For some, based on your offensive formation, its far easier to establish IZ and use same for plays between the outside leg of the Guards.  I use Rules for Off Tackle Runs. Why?  Because there is likely Traps and or Kick Out that I have used over the years for OT and Sweeps.   

I started by teaching them ALA Michaels board drill.  Run Right Step Right........ I also use Combo Calls  for IZ.  They take some time to get used to but, once the kids get it, its just a matter of finding who does it best and building your line from there. 

jmho
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Offline blockandtackle

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2017, 09:24:08 PM »
For some, based on your offensive formation, its far easier to establish IZ and use same for plays between the outside leg of the Guards.  I use Rules for Off Tackle Runs. Why?  Because there is likely Traps and or Kick Out that I have used over the years for OT and Sweeps.   

I started by teaching them ALA Michaels board drill.  Run Right Step Right........ I also use Combo Calls  for IZ.  They take some time to get used to but, once the kids get it, its just a matter of finding who does it best and building your line from there. 

jmho

For us, there's a ton of carry over between our zone scheme and our off tackle scheme.  For the play side, it's essentially the same, just going the other way.

The only real difference for our OL is that we have a backside puller on our off tackle stuff and anything past him on the backside will "scoop/hinge" stepping through his inside gap and picking up anything there, then opening his hips to backside gap to wall off defenders rushing there if nothing's showing.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: The Simplest Zone Scheme on Earth
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2017, 09:43:09 PM »
For us, there's a ton of carry over between our zone scheme and our off tackle scheme.  For the play side, it's essentially the same, just going the other way.

The only real difference for our OL is that we have a backside puller on our off tackle stuff and anything past him on the backside will "scoop/hinge" stepping through his inside gap and picking up anything there, then opening his hips to backside gap to wall off defenders rushing there if nothing's showing.

Crazy Value to teaching a Scoop Bock!  One of my favorites regardless of scheme its extremely useful. 
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