Author Topic: What's Difficult About the Pull?  (Read 5063 times)

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Online coachgregory

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2019, 07:38:40 PM »
I know that, but what I want to know is whether Coach Gregory is doing that when he means they trap them.

Correct.

The Pull side TE essentially uses a short trap (influence) technique and aims for the near hip of the center.  His goal is to plant his outside shoulder in the first thing that crosses his face.  Once he makes contact he drives the defender inside and slams his (the pull side te) inside hip to the center.  As long as the PULL TE is getting off the ball and doing it with decent explosiveness he will generate enough angular force to drive anyone that is attempting to fire across the line back and inside to the center.    At first I don't stress about hands or arms....I just want him getting his outside shoulder on the first thing that attempts to cross the line of scrimmage as violently as possible.  This allows our MPP or lesser athlete to easily match up on stud defensive linemen.  And if the dlinemen decides to play games with the PULLTE then the block did its job because he can't play around with our PSTE and penetrate in the backfield before the play is in the hole playside.  With zero splits and the backed offensive line it is an easy block to execute.  Once he gets the get off, aiming point, strike point, and slamming his inside hip to the center we start to focus on hand/arm location.  I have tried teaching the hands/arms initially with it and have found they spend to much time focusing on their upper body and the key is the get off and lower body explosion into the defender.  A couple of good shots and it will slow down an aggressive defender.  Coupled with play side downs, doubles, wedges coming at them it gets them on their heels.   
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Offline Seabass

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2019, 05:38:22 PM »
Now having been around the game a few more years I am of the belief that "pulling" might be the most over thought, over complicated and over coached aspect of the game.

Online CoachDP

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2019, 12:22:37 PM »
Having joined up with the a Double Wing page on Facebook, I am surprised by the number of "coaches" on there who claim to run the Double Wing, who not only base-block, but also don't pull.  Despite this, they're glad to argue that they run the Double Wing, but they had to "dumb down" the offense for their (fill in the blank) age level.  (They also want to claim that the service academies are running the Double Wing. ::) )

It's amazing to me that dads will spend their time telling their Backs how to run a play, but won't spend any time with their linemen on how to block the play.  Yes, it's faster, simpler and easier to say, "Just block the man in front of you," but that certainly isn't putting that player in the best position to succeed, and it minimizes the responsibility of his job (i.e., "Just...."). And yet the game day lament is still, "You've got to BLOCK!"  Where was all of this impetus during the week?  And then the post-game complaints ("They just won't block"), when during the week, (not) teaching blocking was either an oversight, or a hindrance.

There's really no aspect of this offense that requires "dumbing down."  The only difference in our approach from high school to youth, is how deep we go into the playbook, due to time constraints.   With high school football now being year-round (in NC), it allows us far more teaching time in the off-season.   However, our core plays are the same, our blocking is the same, our tags are the same, our fundamentals are the same and our approach we use to teaching them are the same.

(Really young) kids can pull.  Kids can block and kids can run.  That's all pulling is.  But if they're not doing it well, then that's on you.  If you don't teach the pull well, you can't expect your kids to execute it well.  As a matter of fact, you shouldn't expect your kids to do anything better than you can teach it, yet that seems to be the modus operandi for most youth coaches, which is why I still hear the most common lament of all, "I've got all these kids who've never played before."  That comment tells me that the coach has no belief in his ability to teach, and that he's simply hoping that the kids already know what they're doing.

If your kids don't know who to block, how to block, why they block and how it effects the success of that play, then your blocking will probably not be very good.  Then you might as well pitch the ball as wide as you can to your fast guy and hope he can get outside of contain.  But don't blame your kids for what you won't/don't/can't teach.

--Dave
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 12:58:11 PM by CoachDP »
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Offline rpatric

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2019, 07:52:26 AM »
Dave,

I run into the same level of incompetency on various Facebook sites, riddled with self proclaimed "experts" that don't know the difference between a sneeze and a wet fart. I wouldn't even waste your time reasoning with those people. They are not on your level. I frequently visit a page devoted to offensive and defensive line play and about 1 in 100 posts are useful. I had a "coach" literally cuss me out for telling him that he needs to coach his players to be aggressive rather than yell at them for not being aggressive. Apparently kids are either "bad asses" or "pussies", and there is no changing that! I removed myself from the conversation, didn't even want to dignify him with a response.

I'm playing against a "Double Wing" team tomorrow that doesn't pull either. The coaches just sit on the sideline and yell at the players for not "blocking someone" or hitting the non existing hole created by the non existing blocks generated by the non existing blocking rules. I witnessed this last weekend when I scouted them from their sideline. No motion, no deception, no real scheme. They line up in a DW formation and that's about the only thing DW about what they are doing.

I guess my point is, Facebook is a platform for know it all's and rarely a place to actually strike up an intelligent conversation, especially for someone of your expertise on a subject you are a master of.

BTW, the COD has really benefitted our team Coach! We went toe to toe with the "bullies" of our league last weekend. We lost a nail biter on a BS no call offensive PI followed by a bobbled, dropped pass fell on in the end zone for a TD??? We lost 12-7, but this team murdered us last year 34-0 and again in playoffs 24-0! By the 4th quarter they we done, and our kids were knocking the shit out of them. My team of 22 has 13 kids who have never played before, 0 studs, and maybe 5 really good players. That said, we work extremely hard and give amazing effort which puts us in the position to beat anyone.

Sorry for hijacking this thread guys, rant over!

Ryan

Offline blockandtackle

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2019, 10:38:56 AM »
Facebook groups are the worst.  So many people on there are "experts" who have no idea what they are talking about.  I think most of us have dealt with coaches like that in real life.

As a pet peeve, it kills me when people call Flexbone teams "Double Wing" or "Wing-T" and are absolutely certain there's no difference between the three.

Online CoachDP

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2019, 11:20:15 AM »
Facebook groups are the worst.  So many people on there are "experts" who have no idea what they are talking about.  I think most of us have dealt with coaches like that in real life.

As a pet peeve, it kills me when people call Flexbone teams "Double Wing" or "Wing-T" and are absolutely certain there's no difference between the three.

The funny thing about this group is that is says the following in the FB description:

DESCRIPTION
Dedicated to THE DOUBLE WING OFFENSE (not just some formation with 2 wings) and of course the POWER Offtackle Play. Some may hate it, think it's not relevant but they have to respect it! If they don't they will be crushed by it!


So while it says it's not simply a formation with two Wings, the doofuses still think it's simply a formation with two Wings.  Of course, the other doofuses think they're running the Wishbone offense, simply because of their formation.  And so it goes...

--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2019, 02:48:27 PM »
Ya know...there have been double wing formations and associated systems since long before Markham's.  And backs who might be labeled slots by some are commonly known as wingbacks if they're in that relationship with the tackle and the end is split far away from them, and rightly so because the role they play in the offense is more that of a wingback than of a slot receiver.  So I wouldn't rag on those who say they run "the" double wing, regardless of what their system is.  Or those who say they run "the" wing T regardless of whether it has any closer relationship to Delaware style than any other "T" variation.  I might look askance at any who say they're running "single wing" if it's a wing T formation, but have to admit that, technically, they're still correct.  And I've long since given up on complaining about anybody's positioning of any of the "-backs".  It just may take longer to communicate with them to figure out what they mean.

What would bemuse me is if someone used a certain formation in the expectation that how the players lined up was going to make the results of their plays the same as they are from a completely different system that uses that formation.  And that does seem to go on a lot in discussion of presumably Markham-style double wing offenses.  I don't think I'll ever get why people would rather pull OL predictably from one side to the other instead of just lining them up there to begin with, just because they want to feel like part of the double wing family instead of the single wing one.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2019, 04:15:50 PM »
So it has been said for as long as I have been on this Forum.

A Formation IS NOT an Offense.


Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2019, 04:20:45 PM »
I don't think I'll ever get why people would rather pull OL predictably from one side to the other instead of just lining them up there to begin with,
I cant answer for others but I pull because I like the angle and the force the pulling guard kicks the DE out with in my offense. I also like to make the defense make a choice when someone either goes in motion or pulls, OR both.

Maybe its just my personality, maybe its just what we do, but it fits and it works for me.

Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline spidermac

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Re: What's Difficult About the Pull?
« Reply #69 on: Today at 02:44:29 PM »
I have my 8's pulling in a spread offense :) actually pulling the TE's (tackles, but because it is 8 man, they are considered ends). Not kicking out with them, having them climb to create a lane, make those second level defenders make a choice...left, right or take on the block...

One of my assistant coaches is a former college lineman...and it is so refreshing to have someone (other than my son) who understands the importance of teaching the bigs how to do their jobs working with me with the bigs...it really is great, if he doesn't understand why I am blocking something the way I am, he asks, and if he thinks he has a better idea, he suggests...I had to miss a practice because of a family commitment a couple of weeks ago, and I wasn't worried about him breaking anything :)
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.