Author Topic: Inside Zone This!  (Read 10050 times)

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Offline Michael

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2011, 02:35:22 PM »
I don't want to look like I know more than I do (and if I look like I know anything, then that's more than I do), but Alex basically figures, as I understand it, that you're either (a) blocking the CB, and trying to make the safety miss, or (b) blocking the safety, and trying to make the CB miss.  His standard choice is (b).

Now, if he ever had some stud corner (say Ronnie Lott before he went to safety) who was standing near the preferred path of the football, he might change things up, I imagine.  He adapts pretty quickly.  He says, "That's the world we live in" a lot, meaning, you have to find a way to get it done against what the defense is actually doing, not against what looks pretty, or what you think they SHOULD be doing.  But he was coaching in a league with Lott/Atwater/Bob Sanders/Reed/Polamalu-type safeties and Deion Sanders-type corners (in terms of tackling ability, not coverage ability).  So he decided to block the safety instead of the corner.

That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:59:24 AM by Michael »
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Online mahonz

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2011, 03:37:31 PM »
I don't want to look like I know more than I do (and if I look like I know anything, then that's more than I do), but Alex basically figures, as I understand it, that you're either (a) blocking the CB, and trying to make the safety miss, or (b) blocking the safety, and trying to make the CB miss.  His standard choice is (a).

Now, if he ever had some stud corner (say Ronnie Lott before he went to safety) who was standing near the preferred path of the football, he might change things up, I imagine.  He adapts pretty quickly.  He says, "That's the world we live in" a lot, meaning, you have to find a way to get it done against what the defense is actually doing, not against what looks pretty, or what you think they SHOULD be doing.  But he was coaching in a league with Lott/Atwater/Bob Sanders/Reed/Polamalu-type safeties and Deion Sanders-type corners (in terms of tackling ability, not coverage ability).  So he decided to block the safety instead of the corner.

That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Michael

Perfectly logical.

Now apply that thinking to the real youth world and run this play against your Super Smurfs....even if your play is a simple wedge. 

What happens?

You block the CB or split R way the heck out there.

Coach Mike
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Offline Michael

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2011, 03:59:01 PM »
Actually, with my little dudes on defense, the CB would already be way out there, but to stop the sweep, NOT to cover anybody.  If you split a guy out, I'd actually bring my CB in a bit, to the receiver's inside shoulder, but then he'd still play run.  If you brought a second guy out wider, I wouldn't change anything.  If you brought a slot out, my CB would switch to the inside of the slot guy.  We ignore receivers, except to make sure we're inside (all of) them if there is a quick throw.  That's definitely not how the NFL plays it. :)
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2011, 04:47:26 PM »
Why is that coach,? do you face a lot of passing teams, or see the sweep very often?

Not passing, but enough sweep.  And my HC is EXTREMELY sweep conscious, to the point of paranoia.  He actually has engaged in some revisionist history saying sweeps beat us when it was off tackle, LOL.

But reading this thread tells me maybe it's a smart thing to do.  Look at it this way - if my CB's are my best players, I can play them closer and a step or two deeper - not inverted, but a few steps towards that - and they can still cover the sweep, as well as off tackle where they aren't being blocked.  Our DE's and OLB's will absorb the lead blocks - sacrificing our next best players for your best players, leaving our best player onto the ball.

It's actually worked.  Our D has been a weak point at times, but that's mostly because our coaching staff is impatient, and we've struggled with player placement.  Our second best player was...enigmatic (?) this past year.  He was a bit lazy, but he LOOKED very lazy.  He'd be a star 3-4 plays, then take one off.  Usually, the one he took off someone else made a play.  But instead of figuring out how to work around that without giving in (to the player taking a play off), the DC and HC would get all huffy about it, and either pull him or get on him so bad he'd turtle.  Either way, boom, TD.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 05:11:39 PM by jkoester »

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2011, 06:30:27 PM »
Not passing, but enough sweep.  And my HC is EXTREMELY sweep conscious, to the point of paranoia.  He actually has engaged in some revisionist history saying sweeps beat us when it was off tackle, LOL.

But reading this thread tells me maybe it's a smart thing to do.  Look at it this way - if my CB's are my best players, I can play them closer and a step or two deeper - not inverted, but a few steps towards that - and they can still cover the sweep, as well as off tackle where they aren't being blocked.  Our DE's and OLB's will absorb the lead blocks - sacrificing our next best players for your best players, leaving our best player onto the ball.

It's actually worked.  Our D has been a weak point at times, but that's mostly because our coaching staff is impatient, and we've struggled with player placement.  Our second best player was...enigmatic (?) this past year.  He was a bit lazy, but he LOOKED very lazy.  He'd be a star 3-4 plays, then take one off.  Usually, the one he took off someone else made a play.  But instead of figuring out how to work around that without giving in (to the player taking a play off), the DC and HC would get all huffy about it, and either pull him or get on him so bad he'd turtle.  Either way, boom, TD.

I understand his thought process, if that's what you see a lot, but even then I'm still not going to put my best athletes, in a position where they might get a play come their way once ever 5 or 6 plays, I want them near the ball as much as possible.   

True they may be able to help out on the off tackle and play the sweep (unless they have a lead blocker) but they cant cover the Sweep, the off tackle, and the pass to the flat.

Another thing I don't want is for the Opposing team to be able to control my best players, for example, if I know they are your best kids, they are going to be 14-15 yards away from the ball, and covering routes all day.

I'm not criticizing, just explaining the way I look at it

Offline jem

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2011, 09:55:39 PM »
Rich

Sorry bro....Jem and his funny tagging.... :D....I mean the capitol "C" or the PSCB....if he were playing in tight or manning up on R. 

Coach Mike
:D ;D :)

Sorry, my error....  the Cornerbacks were suppose to be "h & H" ;)



now.... all nice and tiddy.

Actually on my on stuff I usually number the defense 0-9 and then use A for their super stud... the higher the number the better I expect their player to be.  I do that because youth defenses don't always work the way a normal non-youth D does and I want to make sure I don't assume just because a guy is in the normal Corner position... that he really is a corner.  Anyways just my screwed up way of thinking... at least that is what my wife says  :o   ... oops I let that slip out.... now I gotta 'kill ya'   >:(    :D ;D  :)

But regardless per y'alls discussion concerning H {  ;) }... it would be a simple fix if you had a tag to tell them who to block in-case H is the man and not S.  or do like clark if you are rotating him in and out... and tell him who to block.

j


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« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 10:17:33 PM by jem »
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Offline jrk5150

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2011, 10:28:28 PM »
First, we're 9-11's, we don't cover routes.  QB's in our league can't reach "routes", they can lob the ball up in the air, and having our best players out there results in more picks than completions.

Second, yes they can cover all three.  Ball goes off tackle, they come in off the edge and make the tackle.  Ball goes deep to go wide, they come up and make the play.  QB drops back, they drop - ball gets lobbed to the flat, they run to the flat and make the tackle.  What they can't always cover is the TE straight down the seam - if our FS isn't on his game, that's 6.

Third, putting our best players out there has resulted in us playing a lot more 11 on 11 defense than putting lesser players out there and getting beat on the edge.  DE's get blocked by good players, sometimes by more than one.  LB's are always accounted for by a good offense.  As for CB's - read down this thread - CB's are an after thought.  And if they're not, then it's entirely possible that you're paying less attention to the LB's and DE's, who are capable of making plays in confined spaces.  Occasionally, an off tackle run pops through and cuts up the middle where they can't get him.  We usually put a decent kid at FS to pick that up, but sometimes it's 6.  Hey - even good players get beat.

But all that said, I didn't say this was a good idea, I said this was the best way (IMO) for us to play defense based on how our staff coaches defense.  We lost 3 games last year - two on a steady diet of sweeps, one off tackle to a guy faster than anyone we had, and that one we had until I made a horrible decision on play calling.  The first sweep team - first game of the year, and we flat out weren't ready to play yet.  Coaching.  The second team that swept us to death, we didn't have our best guys outside and we got beat by pathetic plays that shouldn't have been capable of beating us.  They ran around our best players and then through our lesser players outside.  That's what locked it in for me.  If we as a staff aren't going to do a good job coaching the interior, than we have to simply plug all the gaps inside with volume/bodies and let our best guys play in space outside.

Offline Michael

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2011, 11:01:01 AM »
Alex basically figures, as I understand it, that you're either (a) blocking the CB, and trying to make the safety miss, or (b) blocking the safety, and trying to make the CB miss.  His standard choice is (b).

I originally posted, accidentally, that his choice is (a).  I meant (b).  I edited the original post, but since it's already been quoted and such, I wanted to come clean.  Sorry about that.
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Offline defensewins

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2011, 05:17:23 PM »
I was mainly alluding to the idea that if there's a difference between "the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law" when it comes to applying something Alex said, I go with the latter.  I took his comments as "ignore the least dangerous defenders" rather than "ignore the corners."  At his level, they're the same.  At my level, they're not.

And on inside stuff, we don't block the corners, either.

I would have to agree.  If CB's were better tacklers in the NFL, I think Gibbs would say block the CB's and leave the Safeties.  He would probably then defend his point by saying something like "the safeties can't tackle, don't waste your time, block the CB's"

Offline Michael

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2011, 05:43:23 PM »
I can just picture him watching a youth football team:

"Son, those corners can play.   You don't block them, you're going to get a lot of negatives.  I don't know about you, but I get negatives, I get fired.  My head coach does not like negatives.  That safety doesn't even know what the ball looks like.  They could have ten of him back there, and they'd never make a tackle.  I wouldn't block him, EVER.  And I mean EVER.  He can run around back there all he wants.  He's not tackling your runner, I'll tell you that much."

Of course, I'm just speculating.  And he'd probably make it more colorful.
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Online mahonz

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2011, 09:41:33 PM »
I can just picture him watching a youth football team:

"Son, those corners can play.   You don't block them, you're going to get a lot of negatives.  I don't know about you, but I get negatives, I get fired.  My head coach does not like negatives.  That safety doesn't even know what the ball looks like.  They could have ten of him back there, and they'd never make a tackle.  I wouldn't block him, EVER.  And I mean EVER.  He can run around back there all he wants.  He's not tackling your runner, I'll tell you that much."

Of course, I'm just speculating.  And he'd probably make it more colorful.

Michael

When my son played 8th grade ball back in the early 90's one of the kids on his team had a very famous grandfather. Joe Collier roamed our sideline for the entire season. A season that ended in a 30 point championship game beat down by our opponent.

The dude never said a word….just paced all the time. Freaked me out. He was not part of the staff but should have been. Had to have been brutal for him watching that championship game. Probably created bad mojo flashbacks for him.  Maybe he felt if he said anything it would have been laden with F-bombs?

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2011, 10:17:06 PM »
I would have to agree.  If CB's were better tacklers in the NFL, I think Gibbs would say block the CB's and leave the Safeties.  He would probably then defend his point by saying something like "the safeties can't tackle, don't waste your time, block the CB's"

I don't because they hardly run there, on OZ/Power and Truck they're blocked, on IZ they're basically out on an island, covering

Offline jem

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2011, 10:56:45 AM »
Jem

Actually when the D is in a 404 that is a good thing because it clears things up for the linemen. The chances are much greater that we will get combos to the play side. 

We ran IZ in 08 & 09 with average results. We did much better with OZ. Coach Mountjoy gave me some RB pointers for running IZ but we didn’t use this scheme this past season so I have not put this info to the test yet.

It would all depend on how the D reacts after the snap as to what exactly happens…it the perfect world of course.

Since the bubble is over the C and the PSOT our monument would be the inside foot of the PSOG. The QB now has to open up at 6 oclock or he will collide with the back.

BSOT is covered so he cant cut so he will shift to Will (b).

BSOG is uncovered so he will slide step to C looking to take over the combo block on the NG.

C is covered so he will lead step to the far hip of the NG using a very good punch if he can. He must get a good snap off first and why the C must be a pretty good athlete in a zone scheme.

PSOG is uncovered so he will slide step to the PSOT looking to take over the combo block on the PSDT.

PSOT is covered so will take a lead step to the far hip of the PSDT using a very good punch.

TE and R is dependent on how the PSDE plays. If fast and up field the TE would ride him up field with R going inside that block to the PSCB. If the PSDE is a force player then I’d probably switch the TE / R rules.

E horns to the sideline and L headhunts.

So the what ifs now come into play. Who will climb to the LB’rs? That depends on the play of the DL. Do you get a double on Will (b) or Mike (B)? 

The RB now has to make a choice depending on how the LB’rs play. Does he continue his path, bounce or cut back into the D?

Therein is the answer to how many yards will be gained.

What if the NG attacks the backside A gap? What if the PSDT attacks outside? Do the LB’rs fill or scrape. Probably fill since its cover 2 but who knows?  Should the Te play nasty or not? That’s the beauty of zone blocking, whatever the D does they should be wrong….if your boys execute. If that’s the case the FS or SS is making the tackle so how fast can he play down hill?

I'd be interested in Coach Hartmans and Coach Kell's take.

Coach Mike

Mike, So did it draw it up like you said?  Just making sure I understand.


j


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Offline jem

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2011, 11:53:35 AM »
Which way are we running?

Anyway assuming we're running to the right

C/g, have 0 which in this case is the NG

the guards have #1 which in this case if the linebackers to their side they will step check their playside team mate then climb to their assignment both reading the LB's for Spill 

t will step check g climb to b, if g comes off his block to take the spill by b, he will climb to the s

Because T is covered (which looks like a 4 tech in that diagram)  will zone with the G reading B for Spill

L cuts v

R would be wider (8-12 yards) he will release down for S
e same thing down on s

d is left unblocked, held by QB's roll 

E will man D

Runningback A

Primary read is the DT (V) if V crams the b gap the back will read the next down lineman away from the call in this case the Nose, if the nose crams the A gap playside the cutback is behind the center if he stunts to the open side A gap the back will cut to the frontside A gap

This is the way I understood what you wrote....


j


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"I truly believe it’s not what you know – it’s what you can teach."  Tony DeMeo

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Online mahonz

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Re: Inside Zone This!
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2011, 06:58:04 PM »
Mike, So did it draw it up like you said?  Just making sure I understand.


j

J

Yep. I did attach a drawing as well. The only unknown in my mind is what is the DE doing because R is so close. It seems E is in the best postiont to block the DE.

Coach Mike
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