Author Topic: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?  (Read 899 times)

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Offline dynodonfb7

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Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« on: September 19, 2018, 08:39:02 AM »
Was wondering what the significance is with the split end on non-play side (for majority of the plays)?  I know it stretches the defense and provides a secondary blocker on some of the counters and abort option plays, but other than that....am I missing something?  It seems that the split would be put to better use being playside on the 10 belly series in order to stretch the defense a bit and provide a seal block for the edge in case the QB keeps.  Would also think that the standard option would flow better this way.  I get that if I had a split and a TE on the same side, the interior TE would be covered....though other than that, I can't think of a good reason for the backside split.  Please educate me.

Offline ZACH

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 09:33:17 AM »
Was wondering what the significance is with the split end on non-play side (for majority of the plays)?  I know it stretches the defense and provides a secondary blocker on some of the counters and abort option plays, but other than that....am I missing something?  It seems that the split would be put to better use being playside on the 10 belly series in order to stretch the defense a bit and provide a seal block for the edge in case the QB keeps.  Would also think that the standard option would flow better this way.  I get that if I had a split and a TE on the same side, the interior TE would be covered....though other than that, I can't think of a good reason for the backside split.  Please educate me.

Open side creates a shorter distance to the edge.  How ever you get there, option, toss/pitch.... also the wr helps take care of the invert in a push/crack scenario.

Other belly based variations run multiple forms to accomodate what they are trying to attack.

Basically its "not that deep" lol, dont like it change it
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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 10:40:33 AM »
They did do some Midline however, the majority of the Barta Bone is Dive, Double Dive, Keep.  Their kids run the offense from Junior High up and are very disciplined on the OL.  In my opinion its not overly sophisticated at all, just extremely well executed and that is why they were so successful.   
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Offline dynodonfb7

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 12:53:40 PM »
I ran this in high school when I was a QB, but we ran belly series out of the standard T.  I want to say that we had dual TEs on playside, one being split to help seal the edge or create a run lane between OLB and CB for the QB keep, but I may be wrong.  This was many years ago.  I am looking at installing the belly series for my 12U wishbone team.  Majority of the defenses we are facing have their corners act as additional DEs and if they don't have an assignment, they are bringing the heat.  I am down to my 2nd string QB and I am not 100% confident that he can routinely make the throw for a TE out or corner to keep the corner honest.  The next best thing would be to carry the TE from the other side and split him out.  At least then I have the possibility of blocking him, or splitting wide enough to create a run lane for the QB keep.  Also, gives me the opportunity to run a tackle eligible play on the weak side. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 12:56:44 PM by dynodonfb7 »

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 01:43:08 PM »
One of the simplest passes in the play book is a TE Dump off Play Action.   Essentially a 3-5 yard Out or Curl depending on DB alignment.   You might not get a ton of yards but it will slow them down off the edge. 

One play I rarely see discussed in the Cross Buck Counter.  A Staple of the T-Formation and works equally as well from the Wishbone.  It can get big yards if the defense has a tendency to over pursue and  attack flow.   Even better if the D doesnt understand or employ BCR tactics. 

Dusty
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Offline blockandtackle

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 09:21:12 PM »
Was wondering what the significance is with the split end on non-play side (for majority of the plays)?  I know it stretches the defense and provides a secondary blocker on some of the counters and abort option plays, but other than that....am I missing something?  It seems that the split would be put to better use being playside on the 10 belly series in order to stretch the defense a bit and provide a seal block for the edge in case the QB keeps.  Would also think that the standard option would flow better this way.  I get that if I had a split and a TE on the same side, the interior TE would be covered....though other than that, I can't think of a good reason for the backside split.  Please educate me.

You have to think in terms of space.  A backside TE would also compress the formation for the defense, bringing the backside pursuit in closer and making an 8 man front much less likely.

Splitting an end on the backside makes it much harder to play 9 or more in the box.  You're either isolating your CB on him in space and possibly exposing yourself to a quick pass or you're going to have to put a S in the middle of the formation, which helps to move players out of the box.

When the S starts rotating over too fast to stop the belly series or the WR is isolated, you throw a backside post or slant off the Belly Series to him and score a TD.  If you try running that play to a TE, he's much more likely to be jammed at the line by a DE, bumped again by a TE, and have a weird angle where a backside S can recover easier.

Double tight, full house backfields aren't as tough to defend as a lot of people think UNLESS you're pulling backside linemen (ala the DTDW, Single Wing, and Full House T offenses).  The Barta bone has a little bit of pulling in it, but not much.  The Double Dive "Belly" series the whole Barta Bone offense is built around is descended from the old Wishbone Veer blocking scheme and was originally designed as a compliment to the Veer that allowed for some misdirection and for the TB to get downhill off tackle without a read involved.

Offline blockandtackle

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2018, 09:22:59 PM »
I ran this in high school when I was a QB, but we ran belly series out of the standard T.  I want to say that we had dual TEs on playside, one being split to help seal the edge or create a run lane between OLB and CB for the QB keep, but I may be wrong.  This was many years ago.  I am looking at installing the belly series for my 12U wishbone team.  Majority of the defenses we are facing have their corners act as additional DEs and if they don't have an assignment, they are bringing the heat.  I am down to my 2nd string QB and I am not 100% confident that he can routinely make the throw for a TE out or corner to keep the corner honest.  The next best thing would be to carry the TE from the other side and split him out.  At least then I have the possibility of blocking him, or splitting wide enough to create a run lane for the QB keep.  Also, gives me the opportunity to run a tackle eligible play on the weak side.

Does your league allow Tackle Eligible plays?  Under NFHS and NCAA rules about "eligible numbers," they are illegal at the MS, HS, and college levels and have been since the 70s.

Offline dynodonfb7

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 08:54:33 AM »
I thought the tackle eligible play was off limits more due to  player numbering, than for any other reason.  In this case, I have two former skill position players beefing up my line at the tackle position, that carry non-linemen numbers on their jersey.  Though, I was just doing some reading on it and it appears you may be right.  Looks like the witch hunt the A-11 offense caused eliminated any type of of tackle eligible play.  Which is odd, because I have seen teams run it.  So my understanding of the rule is that even if I came to the line with two tight ends on the same side, one being tight and the other being split, my weak side tackle would still be off limits.....as he would be an interior lineman.  Is that correct?

Offline Dimson

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 09:00:49 AM »
I thought the tackle eligible play was off limits more due to  player numbering, than for any other reason.  In this case, I have two former skill position players beefing up my line at the tackle position, that carry non-linemen numbers on their jersey.  Though, I was just doing some reading on it and it appears you may be right.  Looks like the witch hunt the A-11 offense caused eliminated any type of of tackle eligible play.  Which is odd, because I have seen teams run it.  So my understanding of the rule is that even if I came to the line with two tight ends on the same side, one being tight and the other being split, my weak side tackle would still be off limits.....as he would be an interior lineman.  Is that correct?
In our league your Tackle or whoever is your EMLOS is has to report as eligible if they are not a TE or WR.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 11:00:53 AM »
In our league your Tackle or whoever is your EMLOS is has to report as eligible if they are not a TE or WR.
So they enforce numbers? Kinda rare in youth. I wish they would honestly.

Offline blockandtackle

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 12:46:03 PM »
I thought the tackle eligible play was off limits more due to  player numbering, than for any other reason.  In this case, I have two former skill position players beefing up my line at the tackle position, that carry non-linemen numbers on their jersey.  Though, I was just doing some reading on it and it appears you may be right.  Looks like the witch hunt the A-11 offense caused eliminated any type of of tackle eligible play.  Which is odd, because I have seen teams run it.  So my understanding of the rule is that even if I came to the line with two tight ends on the same side, one being tight and the other being split, my weak side tackle would still be off limits.....as he would be an interior lineman.  Is that correct?

If he wears an eligible number, he might be able to go out for a pass as long as he's the end man on the line.

NFHS and NCAA rules both specify that you need 5 players with "ineligible numbers" on the LOS that are ineligible to catch a pass no matter where they line up.  Then only the EMOL on both ends can ever be eligible, so if you put 2 TEs next to each other, only the guy on the TE at the end of the line can go out for a pass, while a backside T would be ineligible by number.  If you play with an unbalanced line and do a Tackle Over thing with a TE on the short side wearing an eligible number, than he can still go out for a pass.

Now, if your league is letting you play kids with fewer than 5 "ineligible numbers" on the line... you'd have to check your league's rulebook or talk to the refs about tackle eligible plays and see what their rule is.  That's a gray area and not something that would even be allowed in HS or NCAA football.

Offline Dimson

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 01:25:11 PM »
So they enforce numbers? Kinda rare in youth. I wish they would honestly.
I haven't seen tackle eligible in a while, but last time I seen it, you had to report of you were playing the EMLOS and you were previously playing Guard or Tackle in the game. But like I said, I haven't seen that in a while, so who knows if they still enforce it?

Offline dynodonfb7

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Re: Anybody familiar with Barta Bone?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 04:59:40 PM »
Well, I think this discussion just answered my original question as to why the TE is split non playside.  Splitting non-playside allows two receivers from the line, while two tight ends (one being split) on the same side allows for only one receiver at the high school level.  Damn rules....always getting in the way.