Author Topic: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep  (Read 490 times)

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Offline CoachSteel

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Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« on: March 16, 2019, 04:34:59 AM »
I’m looking to infuse  some wing T concepts into my offense this year and I need some help from you wing T guys. What (if any) rules do you teach the kids to indentify the correct defender to kick out on both Down (Belly G) and Buck Sweep? As I understand it Down is a tighter off tackle trap play and on the Buck Sweep the PSG has a flatter pull and true kickout block. I was thinking for down, first man on to outside the PST and for Buck Sweep first man on to outside the TE? Does this sound right? What do you guys use?

Offline blockandtackle

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 09:32:58 AM »
I’m looking to infuse  some wing T concepts into my offense this year and I need some help from you wing T guys. What (if any) rules do you teach the kids to indentify the correct defender to kick out on both Down (Belly G) and Buck Sweep? As I understand it Down is a tighter off tackle trap play and on the Buck Sweep the PSG has a flatter pull and true kickout block. I was thinking for down, first man on to outside the PST and for Buck Sweep first man on to outside the TE? Does this sound right? What do you guys use?

Both of these plays really work best when you have a TE/WB surface to block down together and the plays are meant to work off each other.  You pin the DE with the WB or TE and run Buck Sweep outside of him.  If the DE is shooting upfield underneath your down blocks and killing the sweep, you run the quick hitting "Down" play to kick out that DE.   It creates a real problem for defenses trying to align to the flank.

Identifying the kick out man is easy: you're going to kick out the first thing that shows past the down blocks.  It doesn't matter who that guy was pre-snap: just pull on your track like a freight train and run through the first thing that shows.  I wouldn't teach the PSG's pull technique any differently unless you're having a problem with one or the other.

Offline Coach Correa

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 01:21:24 PM »
Exactly what Block & Tackle said . Dont over think it but i would strongly re-consider something else if you don't have a TE Wing Flank.
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Offline CoachSteel

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 04:47:50 PM »
I will most definitely have both a TE and Wing on these plays.  That makes sense to just keep everyone on their track blocking down and have the PSG kick the first man to show. If I’m teaching my guard to pull the same on both Down and Buck Sweep, what type of footwork should he be using? Do you guys teach a flat or bucket step, gaining depth to kickout or teach him to make more of a trap block where he’s attacking at an angle?

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 05:25:24 PM »
OK Old Fart opinion here.  (Flame Retardant Suit On)

There are two types of Trap Blocks.  Short and Long.   A Short Trap (One Line Position Over) requires a quick drop step! Drop foot toe is pointed directly at the person  I am supposed to trap.  A Long Trap (two or more line positions over) requires a more flat step.

Difference a Short Trap is more like a 45 degree angle to the Trap Person.  Hence I point my Drop Toe right at him (Attacking Inside Shoulder).  A Long trap is not a Pull I dont want to Bow or Arch to the defender, I want to go as flat as I can.  As such my drop foot will be perpendicular to the Line of Scrimmage the attack angle is reduced to 25 degrees, still attacking the inside shoulder of the defender.  If I am the H Back my attack is the same except I already have Depth, I just need to maintain inside leverage (attack the near shoulder)  to "Kick Out" 
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Offline CoachSteel

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 05:46:16 PM »
OK Old Fart opinion here.  (Flame Retardant Suit On)

There are two types of Trap Blocks.  Short and Long.   A Short Trap (One Line Position Over) requires a quick drop step! Drop foot toe is pointed directly at the person  I am supposed to trap.  A Long Trap (two or more line positions over) requires a more flat step.

Difference a Short Trap is more like a 45 degree angle to the Trap Person.  Hence I point my Drop Toe right at him (Attacking Inside Shoulder).  A Long trap is not a Pull I dont want to Bow or Arch to the defender, I want to go as flat as I can.  As such my drop foot will be perpendicular to the Line of Scrimmage the attack angle is reduced to 25 degrees, still attacking the inside shoulder of the defender.  If I am the H Back my attack is the same except I already have Depth, I just need to maintain inside leverage (attack the near shoulder)  to "Kick Out" 
\
Dusty

I teach my trap technique very similar to your description, especially how you trap. In the past when teaching kids to pull down the line (more than one gap) I have taught them to take a 45 degree step and gain an extra yard in depth or bow as they come down the line. I had a lot of problems with kids getting tangled up with other kids along the line of scrimmage if they didn’t get that extra bit of depth.

My question is if I am going to teach my guard to use the same technique on both down and buck sweep, what technique should I use? Curious how ya’ll teach it.

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2019, 07:05:32 PM »
I teach my trap technique very similar to your description, especially how you trap. In the past when teaching kids to pull down the line (more than one gap) I have taught them to take a 45 degree step and gain an extra yard in depth or bow as they come down the line. I had a lot of problems with kids getting tangled up with other kids along the line of scrimmage if they didn’t get that extra bit of depth.

My question is if I am going to teach my guard to use the same technique on both down and buck sweep, what technique should I use? Curious how ya’ll teach it.
The Pick Pocket Technique brother keeps on write inside out track.
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Offline blockandtackle

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2019, 07:53:02 PM »
I will most definitely have both a TE and Wing on these plays.  That makes sense to just keep everyone on their track blocking down and have the PSG kick the first man to show. If I’m teaching my guard to pull the same on both Down and Buck Sweep, what type of footwork should he be using? Do you guys teach a flat or bucket step, gaining depth to kickout or teach him to make more of a trap block where he’s attacking at an angle?

I like for them to go "back and attack."  It really is about the same distance and angle as a G trapping to the other side of the formation.

Open up by taking a pivot step to get 45-90 degrees from the LOS and open the hips and go "back," then on the second step you "attack" by coming back up towards the line at a slight angle and aim for the inside hip of the guy being kicked out: "point your peter at 'em" is an old coaching point you may or may not be able to get away with actually using.

When he gets there, block with outside shoulder ("right shoulder right"/"left shoulder left") and the head fitting just inside the block to get leverage.  Try to hit with the outside foot up delivering the force into the shoulder and run through the block, uncoiling the hips on contact to create some lift.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 07:54:44 PM by blockandtackle »

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2019, 09:28:14 PM »
Coach:

What you are experiencing is what many of us youth coaches experience with Pulls (especially Double) and or Traps (Long).  I call it Line Wash.  What!!!??? 

Line Wash:  Defined as the failure of the OL to engage and hold their blocks in Pull and Trap situations.  Line Wash causes the Long Puller / Trapper to get caught up colliding with the failed block(s) and miss the blocks they are expected to deliver. 

The aforementioned will absolutely kill the intent of said plays. With this in mind, one has to really think about how to use the concepts effectively while keeping it as simple as possible. AKA Short Trap, Fold, X Blocks (all similar concepts)  Use the FB , H Back to execute the Kick Outs. Its all about using the Angles and Leverage. 

Old Guy opinion.

;)

« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 09:29:54 PM by Dusty Ol Fart »
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2019, 09:32:18 PM »
I like for them to go "back and attack."  It really is about the same distance and angle as a G trapping to the other side of the formation.

Open up by taking a pivot step to get 45-90 degrees from the LOS and open the hips and go "back," then on the second step you "attack" by coming back up towards the line at a slight angle and aim for the inside hip of the guy being kicked out: "point your peter at 'em" is an old coaching point you may or may not be able to get away with actually using.

When he gets there, block with outside shoulder ("right shoulder right"/"left shoulder left") and the head fitting just inside the block to get leverage.  Try to hit with the outside foot up delivering the force into the shoulder and run through the block, uncoiling the hips on contact to create some lift.
I gather from this that you want the inside (far) foot to have landed in very close to the opponent,  and to have the hip and knee coiled on that side while you run thru the opponent w the outside (near) shoulder while you extend both hips.  What I don't understand is the head fitting "inside the block".  Are you getting your head in front of the opponent, or behind him?  On this type of block I coach head behind, but I acknowledge taking a chance on having the blocker wiff on a moving target like that, so I allow the blocker to swing that arm up in front and take a chance on a holding call.  It's still palm on the front of the frame, but it looks like tackling because of the angle -- the hand & arm are acting more in adduction than extension.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2019, 11:14:47 PM »
Bob:

 you are most assuredly over complicating OR confusing things. However, as luck would have it, We want to keep our Head and Ass to the near (play side) shoulder of the defender in order to Seal him out.

Hence we teach defenders to wrong shoulder the block! 



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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 10:55:26 AM »
On down the PSG has to stay tight to the line (scrape paint) and be ready dig into the LOS to get the KO block. A well coached defender will try to close down the gap when the OL blocks down.

bucksweep hits wider and you often have a smaller WB blocking down on a bigger, stronger kid. Any movement made by the DE into the backfield can make a mess out of your pulling linemen. Our rule for the guards on sweep were:
PSG - Pull with depth, kick out first to show
BSG - Pull flat past C, gain depth and look to inside to wall off LB

This allowed for a little slop at the LOS. A lineman being pushed slightly backward or just slipping and sticking a foot back won't shut the play down. It times up better in that the pulling linemen can turn the corner together with better vision and it puts the running back closer to his blockers. He is better able to use them and they don't have to maintain the block as long in space.

Here is a link to a cone drill for teaching the guards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15Lp_vdPjMk

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2019, 08:44:06 AM »
We identify anyone outside of a 4tech as an end. So we kicked anyone or first to show outside the tackle.

Generically speaking people loosely identify an end as 4 tech or wider  with his hand in the ground. Where a olb would be on 2 feet. You can see the flaw in this logic but yea...people think like that esp the 98 Broncos with Gibbs
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Offline COACH JC

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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2019, 03:31:03 PM »
BUCK: 1st man outside of the WB down block. If the EMLOS is lined up outside of our WB, the WB makes a wode call so the PSG knows he needs to pull a little tighter & look for an early kick.

DOWN: Long trap. We’re leaving the EMLOS no matter what. Kicking him out.

POWER: Kicking EMLOS w/ the FB.

GUT: Leave EMLOS, kick him w/ the BSG.

You get all these going pretty well & that SSDE/OLB is in for a rough day.
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Re: Identifying DE/OLB to be kicked out on Down and Buck Seeep
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2019, 05:17:00 PM »
BUCK: 1st man outside of the WB down block. If the EMLOS is lined up outside of our WB, the WB makes a wode call so the PSG knows he needs to pull a little tighter & look for an early kick.

DOWN: Long trap. We’re leaving the EMLOS no matter what. Kicking him out.

POWER: Kicking EMLOS w/ the FB.

GUT: Leave EMLOS, kick him w/ the BSG.

You get all these going pretty well & that SSDE/OLB is in for a rough day.
JC you got cut ups of your Gut play ?
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