Author Topic: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!  (Read 14718 times)

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bear42

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Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« on: February 12, 2011, 04:38:23 PM »
While looking into running a new formation and adding zone blocking, I first understood the 3 rules of zone blocking to be 1. Covered, 2. Uncovered and 3. Playside. Now reading posts and articles about zone blocking the counting of 0-3 starting with the center has popped up.

Is this two different approaches or did I miss something.

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 05:15:05 PM »
The counting method is little more advanced than covered and uncovered.  The thing you and the kids need to nail down is Inside Zone and Outside Zone.  jmho
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 08:14:07 PM »
Coach

If you have a TE the counting method is actually 0-4.

Counting follows the covered uncovered rules but designates the co-op block pre snap for the linemen. Counting can also include a back in the co-op blocking mix.

It never made much sense to me personally because of stunting possibilities.

Using covered uncovered rules and attacking the defense by running them vertical or horizontal and following rules that don’t specify WHO to block made sense to me.

The biggest positive to covered uncovered zone blocking is this….

You will have more time to teach your linemen HOW to block because WHO they block is now irrelevant. The days of lining up all of the defensive scenarios and chalking and walking each one are long gone. Now the blocking rules are such that it is what it is regardless of the defensive alignment pre snap and more importantly post snap. Just run the zone, follow your rules, exicute good technique and never chase. Do that and the D is always wrong...in theory of course.

So counting seemed like added teaching and confusion to me especially if a D uses a lot of 2nd level stunting…like a well coached 44.

Although counting must have merit because I first learned about it from Olivet’s Robust T system that has racked up gobs of yardage running the football. They are a college team though.

Coach Mike
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bear42

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2011, 11:25:55 AM »
Thanks guys,

Coach Mike, I'm glad you put in those words. I feel comfortable introducing this using the covered, uncovered rules.

Thanks again

Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2011, 04:39:43 PM »
Thanks guys,

Coach Mike, I'm glad you put in those words. I feel comfortable introducing this using the covered, uncovered rules.

Thanks again

Coach

No problem.

A few pointers.

Try to play the same 5 linemen in the same position all season long with maybe one or two rotators that can backup any position. It is really important that your G's get a feel for the C and the T's and the T's get a feel for the G's sine the are combo blocking with the intent to climb probably 75% of the time.

Early on you will have both linemen climb right away leaving your poor TB to get crushed....other times you will have neither linemen climb talking away what could have been a nice gain. This happens so dont freak out. After a game or two they really do dial it on in. Then it a thing of beauty.

Really work with the backs and dont peg the one back that tops the combine charts as your #1 right away. Oddly enough, some kids can run the zone while others cant. Its all about anticipation. The back is a part of the line when running a zone scheme. He has to know exactaly what they are doing so he in turn knows what he is doing. The good ones can run a few plays against a particular opponent and beging to anticipate pre snap.

We have had ZERO luck running a lead back into / thru the zone. All he does is get in the way and clog things up. Have your lead back....if you have one...do something else.

Depth of the back is critical. If he arrives before the zone begins to develop it will stall. If he arrives to late the seams are gone. You will have to set your back maybe a little deeper than you may be used to...or have him wrapping the QB towoards his monuments. Any kind of backfiled action that gets him to the LOS on time does work. Although if he is not aligned to run straight downhill right at his monument...he cant see the zone developing and therefore cant anticipate as well.

Coach Mike
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Offline jem

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 05:01:13 PM »
While looking into running a new formation and adding zone blocking, I first understood the 3 rules of zone blocking to be 1. Covered, 2. Uncovered and 3. Playside. Now reading posts and articles about zone blocking the counting of 0-3 starting with the center has popped up.

Is this two different approaches or did I miss something.

Bear:

A while back I ran into the same question you are asking above.  Everything I had studied had always been covered/uncovered.  When Mountjoy joined this forum he introduced us to the counting method.  I had a very hard time understanding the need and he and I had some long Telephone conversations.  If you have ever talked to Bill you will understand he is passionate about his beliefs.  That is Ok by me because I don't think you can teach what you don't believe in.  Just so you get both sides of the story ATTACHED below is his explanation of why counting is important.  Do understand I am not agreeing or disagreeing with him.  I know one of the local colleges around her only teaches covered uncovered and another one teaches Mountjoys method... so I have seen them both taught at the college level, so, my opinion is teach what you decide you believe in.  Anyways, here is Mountjoy's side of the discussion in his own words.  {ATTACHED}

J

PS.  My thread "IZ This!" shows you the difference between the 2 by reading what Mike wrote and then what Rich wrote.  That is why I ask the question and then put their answers in diagram form (actually mike put his own in diagram form, but you know what I mean  :)  ).



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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 10:59:02 PM »
Bear:

A while back I ran into the same question you are asking above.  Everything I had studied had always been covered/uncovered.  When Mountjoy joined this forum he introduced us to the counting method.  I had a very hard time understanding the need and he and I had some long Telephone conversations.  If you have ever talked to Bill you will understand he is passionate about his beliefs.  That is Ok by me because I don't think you can teach what you don't believe in.  Just so you get both sides of the story ATTACHED below is his explanation of why counting is important.  Do understand I am not agreeing or disagreeing with him.  I know one of the local colleges around her only teaches covered uncovered and another one teaches Mountjoys method... so I have seen them both taught at the college level, so, my opinion is teach what you decide you believe in.  Anyways, here is Mountjoy's side of the discussion in his own words.  {ATTACHED}

J

PS.  My thread "IZ This!" shows you the difference between the 2 by reading what Mike wrote and then what Rich wrote.  That is why I ask the question and then put their answers in diagram form (actually mike put his own in diagram form, but you know what I mean  :)  ).

Jem

Absolutely all about preference.   

Bill had a difficult time dumbing down for us dummies. I told Bill once that Im certain I’d never seen a Tampa 2 before…and if I did I wouldn’t know it.

He poked a little fun at me for that but it helped him understand what he was dealing with around here…I think.  I hope he decides to visit again sometime soon.

Coach Mike
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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 11:51:56 PM »
Without saying one is better than the other, referring to covered and uncovered and numbering, I'll simply say that once you get the covered and uncovered down, numbering is the next logical step as far as evolution goes.  I would also add that with the zone scheme you don't always have the double teams that a lot of people think exists. Especially on the outside zone. 

This is one thing that I am still trying to wrap my head around.  I will say that Bill did indeed have a ton of knowledge and experience to share. Perhaps not quite the patience or tolerance for differing opinions. Like a good coach, I think you could say that he believed that what he taught/knew was best.  Agree or disagree his input was certainly a valuable resource for learning.     

   
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Offline jem

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 12:10:36 AM »
Jem 

....Bill had a difficult time dumbing down for us dummies. I told Bill once that Im certain I’d never seen a Tampa 2 before…and if I did I wouldn’t know it.

He poked a little fun at me for that but it helped him understand what he was dealing with around here…
Coach Mike

Mike,
I agree.  Like Clark had said on another thread about running a great play that didn't go anywhere because the defensive coaches were to ignorant to know what they were looking at so therefore the defensive didn't adjust like they should have and their ignorant defense killed the play.  I am not sure Bill ever understood that.  I believe when he coached Pee Wee the pee wee coaches were probably better coaches overall because one... they usually were high school assistants and two... there were NOT so many different leagues and age groups, so, therefore there were less TEAMS and less special rules, so,  therefore less pee wee coaches and these coaches were the same ones year after year and they were very good.  AND Three... high schools didn't pass like they do today and the peewee teams were running the same offense and defense as the high schools and they got a lot of help from the high school coaches and they knew how they were suppose to react.

Now a days we are still running those old offensives,  but the high schools are running spread or ace with zone blocking and they have a real passing game.... we still don't.  Plus because of the emphasis on injuries and fairness etc... we now have alot of special rules and weight limits,  which modifies the game and allows there to be defenses and offensives that are just for the youth game and special youth rules.  These offenses and defenses may or may not be so sound at the upper levels.  (I know that all the teams around here have 4 defensive ends on the field at all times, because nobody is gonna get beat very much with the pass around here.. even though alot of teams run the spread.  The Cam Newton style youth QBs are doing the damage with there legs not their arms).    Hell if I do get beat with the pass it happens so little that I still ain't scared of it and neither are any of the other defensive coaches.    If I ever faced you (mike) and your 5 wide I wouldn't worry about it because you are the only one I would face that would run that... I would just take my loss and move on to the more normal running teams, because one lost wouldn't kill me but screwing up my players heads by emphasizing stopping the pass just to stop the one passing team might mess up the players heads. 

Anyways I now see youth football (12 and under) as a very specialized sport because we have defenses and offenses designed just for youth and special youth rules and I don't know if Bill ever got that, but maybe he did and he was gonna teach his style regardless... which is OK too.  Everybody has there style.   That is just my thoughts.

j
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 12:16:48 AM by jem »
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Offline jem

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 12:23:29 AM »
I would also add that with the zone scheme you don't always have the double teams that a lot of people think exists.

That to me is one of the biggest disadvantages... facing youth defenses you don't get the double team as much as you would facing upper level team who have more DBs and less men in the box because they respect the pass.  This is the same problem Triple option at the youth level has.


Quote
  I will say that Bill did indeed have a ton of knowledge and experience to share. Perhaps not quite the patience or tolerance for differing opinions. 

I think this is a fair statement.  (Note-  I like Bill and he was very very helpful and generous with his time to me).

j
"I truly believe it’s not what you know – it’s what you can teach."  Tony DeMeo

"Victory is always possible for the person who refuses to stop fighting."  Napoleon Hill

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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 12:44:26 AM »
Without saying one is better than the other, referring to covered and uncovered and numbering, I'll simply say that once you get the covered and uncovered down, numbering is the next logical step as far as evolution goes.  I would also add that with the zone scheme you don't always have the double teams that a lot of people think exists. Especially on the outside zone. 

This is one thing that I am still trying to wrap my head around.  I will say that Bill did indeed have a ton of knowledge and experience to share. Perhaps not quite the patience or tolerance for differing opinions. Like a good coach, I think you could say that he believed that what he taught/knew was best.  Agree or disagree his input was certainly a valuable resource for learning.     

 

Shad

Excellent observation and why I insist on playing some talent on the OL if you want to run zone.

Whenever I say this I can hear the gasps and the pucker factor...as Gumby likes to put it....climbs to about 9 or 10.

But think about it....where do so many youth coaches play their Twinkies? On the O and D lines. Therefore if you don’t do that ….you will win the one on one battles and will win plenty of games.

The reason I decided to run zone schemes? Now I have more time to teach them how to block. That has been huge for me as the coach. If I have a couple of Twinkies in the mix…so what…it does not hurt like it used too because they are getting EDD’d to death compared to the kids they are blocking.

Coach Mike 
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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2011, 12:46:28 AM »
Mike,
I agree.  Like Clark had said on another thread about running a great play that didn't go anywhere because the defensive coaches were to ignorant to know what they were looking at so therefore the defensive didn't adjust like they should have and their ignorant defense killed the play.  I am not sure Bill ever understood that.  I believe when he coached Pee Wee the pee wee coaches were probably better coaches overall because one... they usually were high school assistants and two... there were NOT so many different leagues and age groups, so, therefore there were less TEAMS and less special rules, so,  therefore less pee wee coaches and these coaches were the same ones year after year and they were very good.  AND Three... high schools didn't pass like they do today and the peewee teams were running the same offense and defense as the high schools and they got a lot of help from the high school coaches and they knew how they were suppose to react.

Now a days we are still running those old offensives,  but the high schools are running spread or ace with zone blocking and they have a real passing game.... we still don't.  Plus because of the emphasis on injuries and fairness etc... we now have alot of special rules and weight limits,  which modifies the game and allows there to be defenses and offensives that are just for the youth game and special youth rules.  These offenses and defenses may or may not be so sound at the upper levels.  (I know that all the teams around here have 4 defensive ends on the field at all times, because nobody is gonna get beat very much with the pass around here.. even though alot of teams run the spread.  The Cam Newton style youth QBs are doing the damage with there legs not their arms).    Hell if I do get beat with the pass it happens so little that I still ain't scared of it and neither are any of the other defensive coaches.    If I ever faced you (mike) and your 5 wide I wouldn't worry about it because you are the only one I would face that would run that... I would just take my loss and move on to the more normal running teams, because one lost wouldn't kill me but screwing up my players heads by emphasizing stopping the pass just to stop the one passing team might mess up the players heads. 

Anyways I now see youth football (12 and under) as a very specialized sport because we have defenses and offenses designed just for youth and special youth rules and I don't know if Bill ever got that, but maybe he did and he was gonna teach his style regardless... which is OK too.  Everybody has there style.   That is just my thoughts.

j

Jem

Didnt Bill invent youth football....back in the 20's?  :D

Just kiddin' Bill...I miss your input.  ;)

Coach Mike
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CoachKell

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2011, 08:29:53 PM »
Relayed per coach Mountjoy

1.  TE does NOT block #4 on OZ
2.  Numbers are NOT complicated (if you can count to 3)
3.  Covered/Uncovered does not tell you WHO to block - just if you use zone or man.

If anyone has questions feel free to email Coach Mountjoy at billmountjoy@yahoo.com

Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 08:59:09 PM »
Relayed per coach Mountjoy

1.  TE does NOT block #4 on OZ
2.  Numbers are NOT complicated (if you can count to 3)
3.  Covered/Uncovered does not tell you WHO to block - just if you use zone or man.

If anyone has questions feel free to email Coach Mountjoy at billmountjoy@yahoo.com

Rich

Who is your #4 in your counting method?

Coach Mike
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CoachKell

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 11:01:54 PM »
We number 0-3 there is no 4

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