Author Topic: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!  (Read 14720 times)

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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2011, 10:52:16 AM »
We number 0-3 there is no 4


Rich

Thanks bro but your attachement is really tiny and when I zoom in its all blury.

Can you re attach?

Coach Mike
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CoachKell

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2011, 11:38:37 AM »
Yeah I'll try again, this one's better

As per Bill #4 would be the 1st defender in run support from the secondary outside of #3

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Offline Michael

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2011, 12:29:57 PM »
OK, now I have a question.

I get covered and uncovered for zone blocking.

I get numbering for man blocking.

I don't get (yet) numbering for zone blocking.  If you count off, and everybody gets a different guy that way, you're now in a man scheme.  So how does it actually work?
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2011, 12:30:24 PM »
Yeah I'll try again, this one's better

As per Bill #4 would be the 1st defender in run support from the secondary outside of #3

Rich

Thanks…I can see it now.

Attached is my thought process on the numbering system so there must be a #4 on the LOS vs some of the common youth defenses we see. It does make since that the SS, for example in the 43 could become the #4. That clears that up for me. 

I realize…and Bill mentions this in the doc you attached…that the rules are not always applicable so I have to ask…why number?

Aren’t covered uncovered rules always applicable? I cant find any examples where they are not... even against the deadly inside shade techs that Bill mentions.

What confuses me is this. The zone rule says the BSG and C are responsible for comboing the 0 tech pre snap (NG). What the 0 tech does post snap advances the rules for both positions. When the C is uncovered there is about a 75% chance that the BSG is covered….so he goes into cut mode regardless. Ok, thats pretty clear.  But if Mike is now numbered 0 because the C is uncovered then why wouldn’t the C’s first and foremost rule be to attempt to take over the PSG’s man if the PSG is covered….which it is very likely that he is. Why would he need Mike to be his baseman?....the only chance the C climbs is if the 2 tech attacks the B gap...so its a 66% chance the C will never block Mike.

I realize that it may be important to find your baseman as Bill described in Jems attachment…but what about stemming? It would seem that us youth guys would have to train our QB’s to stop the cadence mid sentence so that the C can make his call again. Either that or have our butterfly watching OT’s assume whats happening over the Center since that is the beginning of the numbering system. We see a lot of stemming.

For the youths….numbering seems to pile on to their already really full brains.

Right? You are the master of youth ball.

I must be a complete dufus because I see no added value in any numbering system.  :-[

Coach Mike


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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2011, 12:35:58 PM »
OK, now I have a question.

I get covered and uncovered for zone blocking.

I get numbering for man blocking.

I don't get (yet) numbering for zone blocking.  If you count off, and everybody gets a different guy that way, you're now in a man scheme.  So how does it actually work?

Michael

Im with you...we will await Rich's explaination.

I just cant find any value numbering for zone blocking at the youth level. Rich is a really smart dude though and will clear this up Im sure.

Coach Mike
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Offline cyflcoach

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2011, 03:05:42 PM »
I think the confusion lies primarily with the connotation we all usually associate with the word zone (including me), as in pass coverage zones.  Zone blocking, as I learned it from Jerry Campbell, is nothing more than saying rather than have blocker #1 be responsible for blocking defender #1 regardless of where he aligns or goes, we will say that blockers #1 and #2 or blockers #1, #2 and #3 are responsible for blocking defenders #1, #2 and #3 collectively, rather than individually, as in a man scheme.  Numbering is important (to me more so at the upper levels of play) simply in ensuring the integrity of the scheme in making sure that all the necessary blocks are made.  Does that make sense to anyone else or am I on my own on this one? :D

Dave Hartman
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« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 03:07:41 PM by cyflcoach »
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CoachKell

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2011, 03:07:34 PM »
It allows the OL to know who's blocking who to begin the play, it's like a roadmap, however as the defense changes so does the responsibilities


Offline Michael

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2011, 03:19:13 PM »
It sounds to me like Dave and Kell are saying different things.

But here's what I'm thinking (based mainly on Dave's description):

1) You number as if it were a man scheme.  Say center has 0, guard has 1, and tackle has 2.

2) Uncovered guys zone with the next man to their playside.  So if the guard is uncovered (say 1 is a LB), he zones with the T (2 would be a DL, unless the defense were exceptionally strange, and they were both uncovered).  Therefore, the G and T would zone 2 to 1.  If the LB (1) stays inside, the G would end up taking him.  If the LB goes outside, the T would end up taking him.

Basically, it tells the G/T combination (and the combo has nothing to do with the count) which LB is part of their zone.

I definitely understand the distinction between zone and area as far as blocking is concerned.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2011, 04:01:46 PM »
By the way, the way the new Michigan staff does it, according to what Funk said at the Chicago Glazier, unless I misinterpreted it, is the C first calls the LB for his combo, then the tackles call the LBs for their combos.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2011, 04:11:50 PM »
It allows the OL to know who's blocking who to begin the play, it's like a roadmap, however as the defense changes so does the responsibilities

Rich...oh man of many words.

Are you browsing the forums from your cruiser?

That tells me nothing !

Coach Mike ;)
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Online Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2011, 05:25:26 PM »
I was always under the impression that with covered and uncovered the determination as to who got the LB was made based on which way they (LB) went.  Yes that changes if a LB walks up or the defense shifts fronts. As I have maintained for quite a while, that Zone does not always offer the combination blocks that a lot of folks seem to think are there all the time.  Hence you really need to understand how things breakdown and be able to convey that to your kids.

I have Milt Tenopir's book coming and I know Rich has read it.  I can't seem to get my head around it yet to go forth.  Hopefully I will understand it better after reading Milt's book.  Maybe I am just thinking too much? 

 
 

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Offline Michael

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2011, 05:34:06 PM »
I was always under the impression that with covered and uncovered the determination as to who got the LB was made based on which way they (LB) went.

I have Milt Tenopir's book coming and I know Rich has read it.

It seems to me that the counting is to make sure that two combos don't both think they have the same LB.  Once you've sorted out which LB goes with which combo, then yes, who gets the LB is determined by which way the LB goes.

But I could be wrong about the counting part.

And Tenopir's book is awesome.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »
I was always under the impression that with covered and uncovered the determination as to who got the LB was made based on which way they (LB) went.  Yes that changes if a LB walks up or the defense shifts fronts. As I have maintained for quite a while, that Zone does not always offer the combination blocks that a lot of folks seem to think are there all the time.  Hence you really need to understand how things breakdown and be able to convey that to your kids.

I have Milt Tenopir's book coming and I know Rich has read it.  I can't seem to get my head around it yet to go forth.  Hopefully I will understand it better after reading Milt's book.  Maybe I am just thinking too much? 

 
 

I think the disconnect is that this is an NFL system that has been dumbed down to the College ranks and then dumbed down to High School ranks….and here we sit trying to figure out how to run this scheme with a bunch of children because it works on TV.

My path was simple and quite lucky actually.

John Carbon posted up on the old InfoSports board about Severe Angle Blocking many years ago. A system used by The University of Wisconsin.  Jack Gregory and I listened intently.  I ran it that next season as did Jack. Jack fine-tuned over time to become his very versatile and completely sound TKO system. 

I moved on to Outside Zone.

The reason being that my OT would run his track using SAB….hit air… stand up… and look around. So I taught them….if you hit air then wheel around and hit that LB’r standing right next to you for crying out loud.

They did. Now all I was doing was running a poor mans zone scheme. As a Broncos fan I was intrigued by zone blocking since the mid 90’s but never seriously because info was rare and very advanced.

Then about 6 summers ago Hueys forum fired up. I cant remember how I got the link but I did and was one of the first 100 members or so. I didn’t participate but lurked almost daily.

Not much went on in the early days except a dozen or so upper level coaches went about filling every category possible with tons of information. This was too attract new members and I guess it worked because they have 10’s of thousands now.

One coach in particular peeked my interest and since it was the meek beginnings of that forum, this coach gave me the time of day.  Here I was coaching a 10 year old team in 60 days and he went out of his way to help me install IZ / OZ for the youth level. He is a College level coach and told me to purchase Coach De Leons zone blocking video when he was at Syracuse. Thirty minutes long of nothing but teaching technique. No rules except covered uncovered. 

Everything he taught me made sense and it was simple as far as rules…pretty heady as far as technique. So I was confident in the rules he taught me. The technique was all up to me and a bit scary.

No pin and pull…no counting….no FB lead….no pulling…no bucket stepping if you can avoid it….no 4 hands 4 eyes because its youth ball. We could care less about a Tampa 2 defense. We only care about Gregory’s 63.

He was nice enough to help me dumb things down to the youth level.  I think that is getting lost more and more in threads like this. This is youth football. Coach Mountjoy’s attachments are invaluable…but advanced. He may not think so but they are. I am confident if we all cornered Bill and sat him down to come up with a zone scheme for nose picking Smurfs...it would be a spectactular document. Maybe one day he will be up to it.

If I start teaching numbers to my nose pickers…I just lost all that time I just saved by running zone in the first place...but I am always open to other things. Bill gave me the secret to running IZ that I was failing to see. I can hardly wait to impliment it...so I would never pooh pooh one of his methods. I just need to see the value first. Counting....Im not seeing it.

Just my 2 cents….

Coach Mike
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Offline cyflcoach

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2011, 07:35:01 PM »
George DeLeone's videos are a great resource Mike.  Zone blocking's roots actually appeared long before it became popular with Shanahan and Gibbs with the Broncos.  Although I'm sure there are many other examples, I've seen references to zone type schemes in Woody Hayes' offense at Ohio State.  The concepts are simple if we as coaches are unsuccessful in making them complex!  I have a couple of Milt Tenopir videos that do a good job of illustrating his system, although I'd love to get my hands on his book at some point as well.  I think you mentioned the key point Mike... does it work for your team?  and do you know why it works for your team?  If the answer is yes, then...  ;)

Dave Hartman
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2011, 07:44:20 PM »
George DeLeone's videos are a great resource Mike.  Zone blocking's roots actually appeared long before it became popular with Shanahan and Gibbs with the Broncos.  Although I'm sure there are many other examples, I've seen references to zone type schemes in Woody Hayes' offense at Ohio State.  The concepts are simple if we as coaches are unsuccessful in making them complex!  I have a couple of Milt Tenopir videos that do a good job of illustrating his system, although I'd love to get my hands on his book at some point as well.  I think you mentioned the key point Mike... does it work for your team?  and do you know why it works for your team?  If the answer is yes, then...  ;)

Dave Hartman
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Dave

Excellent analogy as usual.

It is my understanding that Shanahan tasked Gibbs to come up with a scheme that worked against every defense regardless…and what came about was covered uncovered zone blocking….and a 10 year run running over the NFL.

I would imagine everything has been utilized then bastardized and over analyzed to death. I read some things here and there and just have to say HUH? Things certainly progress rather quickly. 

Coach Mike
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