Author Topic: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!  (Read 14717 times)

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Offline coachmsl

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2011, 08:35:42 PM »
Ok heres my guesses on the second worksheet.  I have never run zone!  I am very interested in it though.  These are just my guesses based on reading many different coaches stuff.

Once again:

Backside = full zone 

Playside =
covered - base,
uncovered - combo play side - say your play side teammates name and combo with him to backer (Kevin Burns method of communication)


IZ Right

1)

.............w.......m.........................
.....l..e........n........e...s.......
........t...g...C...G...T...Y......................

t - e
g/C - combo n to w
G/T - combo e to m
Y - s

2)

...........m..........w........l..............
....s......e........n.....e..................
........t...g...C...G...T...Y................

t/g - combl 3 to m
C/G combo n to w
T - e
Y - l

3)

.................m.......................
.....l..e...t.........t...e...s.............
........t...g...C...G...T...Y..............

t/g - combo t to m
C/G - combo t to m
T - e
Y - s

4)

........l........m........s.............
....e.......t........t..........e....
........t...g...C...G...T...Y.............

t/g - combo to l
C/G - combo to m
T - s
Y - e

5)

.........w................m......................
.....l......e....n....e.......s....................
........t...g...C...G...T...Y......................

t - e
g/C - combo n to w
G - e
T/Y - combo s to m


6)

..............w.........m...........................
.........l....e.......n....e...s.....................
 ........t...g...C...G...T...Y......................


t/g - combo e to w
C/G - combo n to m
T - e
Y - s


7)
............w........m.............................
........l....e...n........e...s......................
........t...g...C...G...T...Y......................

t - e
g/C combo n to w
G/T combo e to m
Y - s

8)

..............w...m.................................
........l....e........n...e...s......................
........t...g...C...G...T...Y.....................

t/g - combo to w
C/G combo n to m
T - e
Y - s

9)

......l......w.......m...........................
........e.......n....e........s....................
........t...g...C...G...T...Y.....................

t - sift to l
g/C - combo n to w
G - e
T/Y - combo s to m


10)
.......l.........w.......m.........................
.......e........n........e...s......................
........t...g...C...G...T...Y.....................

t - sift to l
g/C - combo n to w
G/T - combo e to m
Y - s

All right.  Go easy on me. 

Matt
What makes the grass grow?...........BLOOD!

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2011, 11:57:18 PM »
I may be way off here but I will be corrected.

As I understand it the concept moves left to right or right to left depending on the play call.  The backside or weak side is used to obstruct the flow of the defense.  I am not concerned about double teaming a player who is 3 or 4 positions removed from the play. As such, I want to prohibit them from logging or scraping to the play by sealing or cutting them off.  That means I cut the DL and Climb to the second level.  Essentially,  that means my WSG is cutting the 1 or 3 and the WST is climbing to the WSOSLB or ISLB depending on the D. When using the Denver Stretch game, those back side cut blocks are essential to open up the lanes.  With IZ you might get the combos more often but still the idea is to seal the backside defender who can most effect the play.

Fire away.  I am all ears. 
 
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Offline coachmsl

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2011, 07:35:37 AM »
Shad.

I cant throw a big enough disclaimer out there, I have never run IZ.  I am studying it for some time in the future.   

Just to clarify, I am using a full zone / wide zone / outside zone / faster rotating combo on the backside.  I am not sure if i want to cut.

Matt
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 08:36:35 PM by coachmsl »
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Offline defensewins

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2011, 08:26:47 PM »
Never want to cut on IZ. That would essentially take out the cutback lane. No bueno!

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2011, 09:19:53 PM »
Agreed, cut blocks are for OZ.

 ;)
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2011, 12:09:05 PM »
Never want to cut on IZ. That would essentially take out the cutback lane. No bueno!

Morris

Que Taco Burrito?

How would cutting a backside 3 tech effect the cutback lane if the back is tasked to press the LOS before making any cut?

Coach Mike
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CoachKell

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2011, 01:52:25 PM »
You dont have to cut at all, it's WAY easier to simply Zone straight across, we only move to cutting once we master the zone concept, however it depends on the kids.  Last season we started cut blocking 4 games in.

bear42

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2011, 04:10:43 PM »
OK, I'll add another spoke to this wheel.

Does everyone that uses the Zone scheme, whether you teach covered / uncovered or numbering, do you also teach the 10-50-90 rule?

Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2011, 04:53:07 PM »
OK, I'll add another spoke to this wheel.

Does everyone that uses the Zone scheme, whether you teach covered / uncovered or numbering, do you also teach the 10-50-90 rule?

Bear

I have no clue what that means.

Coach Mike
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Offline coachmsl

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2011, 05:59:07 PM »
Bear,

I think i have read something about that.  If you are uncovered and combo'n playside, the defenders position on your partner gives you the % you will take over the block.

So the defender is:
On your playside partners inside shade = 90% chance you end up blocking him.
On your playside partner head up = 50% chance you will end up blocking him.
On your playside partners outside shoulder = 10% chance you will end up blocking him.

I dont remember where i read that, and have not thought it thru as to if i could teach it some how, or would need to teach it. 

Bear, does this sound like the same thing you were talking about?

Matt
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2011, 06:06:24 PM »
Bear,

I think i have read something about that.  If you are uncovered and combo'n playside, the defenders position on your partner gives you the % you will take over the block.

So the defender is:
On your playside partners inside shade = 90% chance you end up blocking him.
On your playside partner head up = 50% chance you will end up blocking him.
On your playside partners outside shoulder = 10% chance you will end up blocking him.

I dont remember where i read that, and have not thought it thru as to if i could teach it some how, or would need to teach it. 

Bear, does this sound like the same thing you were talking about?

Matt

Matt

Oh...OK...maybe thats what he meant.....if this is teaching odds then yes we do go over those odds...but not as a rule...just as the probabilities.

Coach Mike

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bear42

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2011, 09:03:00 PM »
Guys,

Yes this is what I'm talking about. I'm wondering if this might give a player the right mind set or lead them to thinking more than they should. Trying to keep it simple.

Thanks

Offline coachmsl

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2011, 09:18:03 AM »
To expand on bears post and the 10 50 90 thing

What experiences have you had with teams blitzing lbs or $.  Can you tell me how you've taught your lineman to process the info. 

If they are uncovered they will be thinking Step playside (choose your style of step) to combo.  Step to crotch. Punch....

But from what ive read, its after these that the eyes go to lb.  During the combo's push. 

So if at the snap a LB (which aligns at 3-4 yds) turns the burners on down hill, he could run right by the lineman.

May not be the best example for this but lets us it until someone provides another

........w.....m.....s........
....v....v.....v.......v....v....
......y..t..g..C..G..T..Y........

How does the O lineman process the info.  Is there a switch that says, s is aligned thin and i am going to end up with him.  step playside but with eyes on s.  Here he comes.  step to s, punch s.


Or do you just teach a combo, start slow, slowly speed up the lb action.  I read somewhere at first some coaches dont even have lbs in the picture.  I would think by the first scrimmage youd better have run some drills with blitzes and quick fills or the other teams d is going to have a hay day.   And then you know what happens.  All of your coaching peers are saying "See there Cletus, i told you that zone aint for yoots."  But i digress. 

I think the blitzing lb is my major concern right now.  You guys have in advice or experiences you would like to share.

Thanks

Matt


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Offline defensewins

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2011, 01:06:04 PM »
Morris

Que Taco Burrito?

How would cutting a backside 3 tech effect the cutback lane if the back is tasked to press the LOS before making any cut?

Coach Mike

I get what you are saying. But the fact of the matter is that after the cut, the OL would have to get on the play side of the three tech. Otherwise we are leaving a defender (on the ground or not. They are taught to use their paws too) in the cut back lane. The cutback lane may not be all that large, and depends on how much movement the center can get on the shade.

IMHO, the reason cutting is an issue with IZ and not OZ, is the aiming point and the type of cut.  On OZ it is a cut up and on IZ it is a cut back, due to the aiming point.   It doesn't matter on OZ because the cut up lane is moving in a horizontal stretch. The same horizontal stretch is not gained on IZ.

Lastly, if we feel that we have a butt kicker at the three tech and still want to run IZ away from him, we will fold block the three tech on the back side.  Pure zone gurus turn over on this, but it works for us (and we got the idea from several different college coaches that have been successful with it).

Offline defensewins

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Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2011, 01:31:26 PM »
But from what ive read, its after these that the eyes go to lb.  During the combo's push. 
So if at the snap a LB (which aligns at 3-4 yds) turns the burners on down hill, he could run right by the lineman.
May not be the best example for this but lets us it until someone provides another
........w.....m.....s........
....v....v.....v.......v....v....
......y..t..g..C..G..T..Y........

How does the O lineman process the info.  Is there a switch that says, s is aligned thin and i am going to end up with him.  step playside but with eyes on s.  Here he comes.  step to s, punch s.

Or do you just teach a combo, start slow, slowly speed up the lb action.  I read somewhere at first some coaches dont even have lbs in the picture.  I would think by the first scrimmage youd better have run some drills with blitzes and quick fills or the other teams d is going to have a hay day.   And then you know what happens.  All of your coaching peers are saying "See there Cletus, i told you that zone aint for yoots."  But i digress. 

I think the blitzing lb is my major concern right now.  You guys have in advice or experiences you would like to share.

Here is how we would teach the RG in this situation:

........3.....1.....1........
....4....2.....0.......2....3....
......y..t..g..C..G..T..Y........

RG identifies who he has in his count and realizes his man is off of the LOS.  He could get a stab from the DL so he is going to step to help/prevent that first.  He can do this because his man is removed from the LOS.  He has to understand the relationship between the length of time to help his OL next to him and the distance his man is off of the LOS.  Closer = less time; farther = more time. 

If everything stayed the same as the diagram, our RG would step as though there were a 3 tech on him (to prevent/take care of a stab by the DL).  The the time he his taking his second step, his eyes are on his man.  He his going to continue to help the OL next to him until the RG's man is about three of his (the RG's not the defender) steps away from the RG.  I say three steps because he needs two steps to ensure the correct contact and one step for the recognition/timing factor. 

If the LB walked up to the gap pre-snap, well then that would be the same thing as if he had a DL in his gap.  Due to the distance, he can not help any one. He has to go right now. 

What if it is a dog (delayed blitz)?  Again, it goes back to the time/space relationship.  Help for as long as he can, but go when he needs to go (within three steps).

In a way, it is no different than teaching a ball carrier to lower his shoulder prior to contact.  If there is room to run, a RB is not going to lower his shoulder far away from contact.  He is going to run unimpeded for as long as possible until he needs to deal with the contact.  Here, the RG is helping get movement as long as possible until he has to deal with his man.