Author Topic: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!  (Read 14721 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

coach msl

  • Guest
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2011, 10:03:43 AM »
Mike,

Been thinking this over.  Here are my reasons:

It forces conflict. It forces the Defense to play sound gap, controlled ball.  Then the OZ / IZ  (the leverage, movement scheme) plays on the defenders responcibilities and  their commitment to those responcibilities.  With my limited experience studying this scheme, i can see the conflict for dt and lb.  It is a subtle enough difference which i see could force the defender to lock focus into fitting correctly, so that the counter or PA complementary plays are more effective.

It allows the line to pick up varying fronts without a new game plan.

It is a simple enough scheme that gets as many combos as possible.

Matt

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

  • Benefactors
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7591
  • Total likes: 925
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Retired
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2011, 12:00:27 PM »
A reminder that one should realize that the defense is not static but moving.  While you and I might know this the kids are the ones who have to execute.  Like anything else there will be a learning curve for them.  That curve can be painful to watch.

 :'(
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline defensewins

  • Bronze
  • Posts: 901
  • Total likes: 34
  • Coaching: College
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2011, 01:21:10 PM »
Mike,

Been thinking this over.  Here are my reasons:

It forces conflict. It forces the Defense to play sound gap, controlled ball.  Then the OZ / IZ  (the leverage, movement scheme) plays on the defenders responcibilities and  their commitment to those responcibilities.  With my limited experience studying this scheme, i can see the conflict for dt and lb.  It is a subtle enough difference which i see could force the defender to lock focus into fitting correctly, so that the counter or PA complementary plays are more effective.

It allows the line to pick up varying fronts without a new game plan.

It is a simple enough scheme that gets as many combos as possible.

Matt
A reminder that one should realize that the defense is not static but moving.  While you and I might know this the kids are the ones who have to execute.  Like anything else there will be a learning curve for them.  That curve can be painful to watch.

 :'(


Agreed.

In addition to the above posts, I would also say that there are a lot of connections in TEACHING IZ and OZ.  Going from OZ to trap would be more teaching that going from OZ to IZ. 

Offline defensewins

  • Bronze
  • Posts: 901
  • Total likes: 34
  • Coaching: College
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Coordinator
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2011, 01:21:45 PM »
*than* going from OZ to IZ

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2011, 04:10:59 PM »
Coaches

It was more me wondering if my logic was the right approach.

Teach a different scheme entirely while attacking a different gap.

Coach Mike
What is beautiful, lives forever.

coach msl

  • Guest
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2011, 08:04:45 PM »
A reminder that one should realize that the defense is not static but moving.  While you and I might know this the kids are the ones who have to execute.  Like anything else there will be a learning curve for them.  That curve can be painful to watch.

 :'(

Shad,

Sounds like you have had a bad experience with this?  Im all ears.  Seriously, its February and i am just studying.  I like hearing both sides of the story.

Thanks

msl

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

  • Benefactors
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7591
  • Total likes: 925
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Retired
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2011, 10:25:01 PM »
Shad,

Sounds like you have had a bad experience with this?  Im all ears.  Seriously, its February and i am just studying.  I like hearing both sides of the story.

Thanks

msl

Getting them to understand covered and uncovered and how to come off to the second level is more than enough for the kids to handle. I liken it to trying to teach 5 kids to drive different cars at the same time.  They are traveling at 10 MPH at the same time and you say step on the brake. One will jam it to the floor, one will barely touch it, one will miss and hit the gas...You get the picture!  With Zone concepts they all have to work in unison with 1/2 a defender.  What are your rules when the LB comes up right behind the DT's butt and swaps side to side pre-snap?  Sounds asinine but it happens with even the most basic principles.  Too many times I have seen coaches use the "if (insert any team here) can do it so can I mentality!"  This scenario is not limited to zone it happens with everything they are learning.  The expectation is to run but they have to learn to crawl and walk first.   ;)

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

coach msl

  • Guest
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2011, 10:54:52 PM »
Getting them to understand covered and uncovered and how to come off to the second level is more than enough for the kids to handle. I liken it to trying to teach 5 kids to drive different cars at the same time.  They are traveling at 10 MPH at the same time and you say step on the brake. One will jam it to the floor, one will barely touch it, one will miss and hit the gas...You get the picture!  With Zone concepts they all have to work in unison with 1/2 a defender.  What are your rules when the LB comes up right behind the DT's butt and swaps side to side pre-snap?  Sounds asinine but it happens with even the most basic principles.  Too many times I have seen coaches use the "if (insert any team here) can do it so can I mentality!"  This scenario is not limited to zone it happens with everything they are learning.  The expectation is to run but they have to learn to crawl and walk first.   ;)

Shad,

What are some of the mistakes and solutions you discovered thru your coaching of IZ/OZ?     

Thanks,
msl

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

  • Benefactors
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 7591
  • Total likes: 925
  • Coaching: 14 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Other
  • Title: Retired
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2011, 11:20:34 PM »
Hardest thing for IZ was the right combination (stepping to the wrong side) and then getting the half man down without stepping on each other. .  OZ the way I ran it was easier because they were stepping at a 45 degree angle to the outside.  I Think of OZ as blocking alleys.  I'm not worried so much about the combo as I am attacking the edge.  Currently I am not using zone schemes.  I believe that Rich had a better idea for the line in a youth setting. That was zone the whole thing rather than worry about IZ and OZ.  For me it will take a lot more studying so that I get it down to where I can do it and the kids justice. 

Right now I am using Veer concepts for the Option and Man blocking for the I.  I found it much easier to teach and faster to learn for my situation. 
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2011, 12:59:01 PM »
Coaches

We have had success with any age group running OZ.

We have not had much success running IZ regardless.

My theory as to why has been this.

The kids have no lower body strength on either side of the football. To run the defense horizontally requires athletic feet and some quickness. To push the defense vertically requires lower body strength along with athletic feet and quickness.

So with OZ you have kids running with kids at an angle and with IZ you have kids pushing on kids straight up.

The reason I think this may be a development thing is because our league is independent so there are no weight caps. There is always a rather large swing from biggest to smallest on every team and the big’s will block for the smalls and the bigs will keep others off linebackers. So both lines can get rather large.

The bigs are generally less athletic prepubescent because they simply have not grown into their bodies yet and why I like to play some of the medium sized athletes on the OL. Still being kids the lower body strength is just not there in most cases. I have also found the the really big kids have a tendency to play soft becuse all of their lives they have been told to be careful of others. That is a real thing they have in their heads that I have to coach them thru.

Destroy that kid in front of you....its OK when playing football...but be nice to your sister when you go home.

So I think the nature of our league promotes an OZ scheme. Now with 8th graders I see the bigs start to become more athletic…some really start to progress but not as a group. Some kids develop faster than others.

I may be way off base but I sure have tried both OZ and IZ. Coach Mountjoy really went into the finer points of IZ but I have not put these ideas to the test yet….and may not for years since I won’t be coaching kids over the age of 9 for a while yet.

Coach Mike
What is beautiful, lives forever.

CoachKell

  • Guest
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2011, 07:51:49 PM »
Coaches

We have had success with any age group running OZ.

We have not had much success running IZ regardless.

Mike please don't take offense to this  but looking at that diagram you showed Jem, on your IZ  there, may be a reason why. 

On your IZ play you leave 2 defensive linemen totally unblocked backside, now you are going to have a back trying to dent the PS a gap, with NO cutback, and I''d imagine a DL crashing in an attempt to get on a linebacker, who may or may not flow TO the play.

Again I'm not downing the way you run your offense, but I cant see how anyone could run IZ the way you diagrammed it. 

Quote
My theory as to why has been this.

The kids have no lower body strength on either side of the football. To run the defense horizontally requires athletic feet and some quickness. To push the defense vertically requires lower body strength along with athletic feet and quickness.

Again I have to disagree, It doesn't matter if kids have no lower body strength, because you are getting double teams across the front.


Lets look at it in basic principle, if you have 3 kids who are all evenly matched in strength, then by creating a situation where you have 2 0n 1, 1 offensive player would negate the defensive player because now they are even correct ( a tie) , by adding another player into the mix, now the offensive line gains an advantage , because of sheer numbers, even if the second player isn't using 100%, of his strength it's always going to be more than the defender can apply.   

Quote
So with OZ you have kids running with kids at an angle and with IZ you have kids pushing on kids straight up.

They're supposed to be pushing straight up on both IZ and OZ, the difference is the aiming point of the back, the blocks change slightly on the outside IF we can get a slip block to get to the perimeter.   

Quote
The reason I think this may be a development thing is because our league is independent so there are no weight caps. There is always a rather large swing from biggest to smallest on every team and the big’s will block for the smalls and the bigs will keep others off linebackers. So both lines can get rather large.

The bigs are generally less athletic prepubescent because they simply have not grown into their bodies yet and why I like to play some of the medium sized athletes on the OL. Still being kids the lower body strength is just not there in most cases. I have also found the the really big kids have a tendency to play soft becuse all of their lives they have been told to be careful of others. That is a real thing they have in their heads that I have to coach them thru.

Destroy that kid in front of you....its OK when playing football...but be nice to your sister when you go home.

I like "you 2 destroy that kid" better ... then destroy your sister what the hell...=;)

Quote
So I think the nature of our league promotes an OZ scheme. Now with 8th graders I see the bigs start to become more athletic…some really start to progress but not as a group. Some kids develop faster than others.

I may be way off base but I sure have tried both OZ and IZ. Coach Mountjoy really went into the finer points of IZ but I have not put these ideas to the test yet….and may not for years since I won’t be coaching kids over the age of 9 for a while yet.

Coach Mike

Remember though Mike, it is being done with teams as young as 6!, I couldn't believe it, till I saw it being run... Now does it look like the NFL.. No.. but it's zone, it's doesn't require anything more special than a coach who beleives it, and kids that like playing football. 

We based our offense off IZ this year with the MS team, we did well with it. Now again Bill Mountjoy is my mentor, and any question I have I put to Bill for his guidance 

To answer your previous question "Why IZ?", because defenses dont always behave the way we want them to, sometimes they have better athletes that can get to the outside better than we can, sometimes they can, sometimes you have teams that can read an offensive line and can shoot the holes left by pulling linemen..., IZ allows you to teach ONE blocking scheme and run it across the board.

remember the whole Zone principle goes hand in hand with the White/Red (Wide/Reduced) principles, therefore we don't run certain things at certain fronts.

It's very difficult for a defense to stop IZ, and OZ together.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 07:57:38 PM by CoachKell »

coach msl

  • Guest
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2011, 08:19:08 PM »
Uhhh.  Sorry Kell but i diagramed those plays, and Yes my backside blocking is off.  Told you i was guessing!!!

Matt

CoachKell

  • Guest
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2011, 08:46:23 PM »
Uhhh.  Sorry Kell but i diagramed those plays, and Yes my backside blocking is off.  Told you i was guessing!!!

Matt

Ok, Mike was that diagram correct though? assignment wise?

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 24265
  • Total likes: 2547
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 8 & Under
  • Defense: 3-5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2011, 11:02:22 AM »
Mike please don't take offense to this  but looking at that diagram you showed Jem, on your IZ  there, may be a reason why. 

On your IZ play you leave 2 defensive linemen totally unblocked backside, now you are going to have a back trying to dent the PS a gap, with NO cutback, and I''d imagine a DL crashing in an attempt to get on a linebacker, who may or may not flow TO the play.

Again I'm not downing the way you run your offense, but I cant see how anyone could run IZ the way you diagrammed it. 

Again I have to disagree, It doesn't matter if kids have no lower body strength, because you are getting double teams across the front.


Lets look at it in basic principle, if you have 3 kids who are all evenly matched in strength, then by creating a situation where you have 2 0n 1, 1 offensive player would negate the defensive player because now they are even correct ( a tie) , by adding another player into the mix, now the offensive line gains an advantage , because of sheer numbers, even if the second player isn't using 100%, of his strength it's always going to be more than the defender can apply.   

They're supposed to be pushing straight up on both IZ and OZ, the difference is the aiming point of the back, the blocks change slightly on the outside IF we can get a slip block to get to the perimeter.   

I like "you 2 destroy that kid" better ... then destroy your sister what the hell...=;)

Remember though Mike, it is being done with teams as young as 6!, I couldn't believe it, till I saw it being run... Now does it look like the NFL.. No.. but it's zone, it's doesn't require anything more special than a coach who beleives it, and kids that like playing football. 

We based our offense off IZ this year with the MS team, we did well with it. Now again Bill Mountjoy is my mentor, and any question I have I put to Bill for his guidance 

To answer your previous question "Why IZ?", because defenses dont always behave the way we want them to, sometimes they have better athletes that can get to the outside better than we can, sometimes they can, sometimes you have teams that can read an offensive line and can shoot the holes left by pulling linemen..., IZ allows you to teach ONE blocking scheme and run it across the board.

remember the whole Zone principle goes hand in hand with the White/Red (Wide/Reduced) principles, therefore we don't run certain things at certain fronts.

It's very difficult for a defense to stop IZ, and OZ together.

Rich

No offense taken brother...EVER. Tis the season to break stuff down.

On OZ I have the backside OT cutting a 3 and sifting a 4 tech. On IZ I have that OT sifting so he can influence a 3 or 4 tech away from the POA since the back will indeed be closer to him. This is so he can always get into climb mode. So my diagram may be misleading....the BSOT is sifting.

I also beleive that our IZ monuments were running at the bubble when Bill insists that you run IZ either right or left of the bubble.... or directly at the LB'r.

I know Im doing something wrong because our OZ is just fantastic....IZ is hit and miss.

Super Smurfs running zone would be something....Im going to dabble a bit this August and see if they get the basics.  As always thanks for the feed back. Im going to go back and really take look at my IZ rules and compare them to some of the others.

Coach Mike
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 11:04:19 AM by mahonz »
What is beautiful, lives forever.

CoachKell

  • Guest
Re: Confused on Zone rules, HELP!
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2011, 11:24:07 AM »
Rich

No offense taken brother...EVER. Tis the season to break stuff down.

On OZ I have the backside OT cutting a 3 and sifting a 4 tech. On IZ I have that OT sifting so he can influence a 3 or 4 tech away from the POA since the back will indeed be closer to him. This is so he can always get into climb mode. So my diagram may be misleading....the BSOT is sifting.

I also beleive that our IZ monuments were running at the bubble when Bill insists that you run IZ either right or left of the bubble.... or directly at the LB'r.

I know Im doing something wrong because our OZ is just fantastic....IZ is hit and miss.

Super Smurfs running zone would be something....Im going to dabble a bit this August and see if they get the basics.  As always thanks for the feed back. Im going to go back and really take look at my IZ rules and compare them to some of the others.

Coach Mike

Nah it wasn't super smurfs, just regular (really goofy) kids, that was the telling part.