Author Topic: Defending pass with 7-8's  (Read 218 times)

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Offline DumCoach

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Defending pass with 7-8's
« on: September 05, 2019, 12:14:36 AM »
So my 7-8's got hit with a pass.  The pass was thrown to a receiver lined up left (a TE?  FL?  I was on the other side of the field and don't know) who ran a crossing route.  He caught the pass 15 yards downfield thrown by the QB 10 yards behind the LOS for a 25 yard throw.  The QB did not look like he was trying to throw.  It looked like a busted play to the right.  Then QB recovered and there goes the ball over my head to wide open, uncovered receiver behind. 

The corner to the side receiver lined up on is a 7 year old, two foot dwarf who can run fast.  He three step drops but likely has no clue what a pass even is.  I had him at 4 yards deep as I expecting run at this age group and not a 25 yard throw to the opposite side of the field. 

So, for those who have been there, what should I be doing with that corner?
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2019, 12:59:22 AM »
So, for those who have been there, what should I be doing with that corner?

Forget the Corners.  Where were your Safeties?

--Dave
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2019, 03:31:07 AM »
Forget the Corners.  Where were your Safeties?

--Dave

My reaper was at 5 yards trucking to what he and I both thought was a busted sweep right.
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Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2019, 08:10:37 AM »
So on the diagnosing sweep right, both playside corners should take their 3 read steps back ( I have mine angled so their steps are backing toward sideline) and Mike is (if run) coming in downhill at angle preventing cutback from backside shoulder.
Backside corner in taking his read steps diagnoses sweep away and slow rotates to playside playing cap but checking bootleg counter reverse. He should have been the one to get the pass if the pass was anywhere near the middle of the field. He may have overran his responsibilities.

Mike was probably too far in run support as you said it was busted play, to backpedal once he saw "ball to ear" from QB

The playside DE should have had QB down by the time he pulled the ball down and set up for pass. Remember, the DEs in this defense hunt and their assignment changes while play is going on. They read deepest nearest and once a roll out or boot happens from the QB the QB is now the deepest nearest so he has to have him now. They are hunting ball and killing ball, not positions.

The backside DE hunting in as he sees the play going away from him should be looking for BCR as well and he should have QB down once he sets to throw.

Like mike, instincts is what the DEs need in this defense to make this D work so well. The pass should never have gotten off due to just the DEs, they are force not read
Here is 2 videos of the changing responsibilities of the DEs
One of them you'll see the playside DE force in diagnose swing pass to tailback take line of sight for pick and backside takes down QB

Next you will see playside DE feel they want to sweep by the block, keeps eyes on Tailback, and forces inside and make play. This team in blue was the superbowl champs from that year These are 9 YOs
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 08:12:11 AM by Wing-n-It »
Robert

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Offline CoachSugg

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 08:16:58 AM »
Hardest part was that it was a busted play, so at that point the CBs are no longer reading pass.  HB Pass has always most difficult for us to defend, especially in the red zone.

If the TE was the #1 WR, then he should have noticed an immediate release, as he'd have had to been in a pass route the whole time to get where he was going.

A broken play is the worst thing to defend in little man football.  After 3 seconds and/or an almost tackle, nobody is still doing their job, they're just all playing football at that point.
Kent Sugg
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Offline ZACH

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 09:48:56 AM »
No idea what your defense is or what your shell looks like.

We ran a wierd 4-3 with cover 3 monster  anyway... only 1 corner and 1 safety had a pass read.  Just making them aware of pass was enough to stop most.

2 things happened when "pass" was called by a coach...everyone rushed except the 1 corner and 1 safety.

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Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 10:28:17 AM »
No idea what your defense is or what your shell looks like.

We ran a wierd 4-3 with cover 3 monster  anyway... only 1 corner and 1 safety had a pass read.  Just making them aware of pass was enough to stop most.

2 things happened when "pass" was called by a coach...everyone rushed except the 1 corner and 1 safety.
Since he posted in Jacks portion I think he's running a close 6-3 to Jacks. Which is one of the only reasons I would reply as I know Clark is far more intelligent than I, but I do have a good amount of experience with this Defense and when Clark was designing his KB there was a collaboration with about 2-3 other coaches helping him with tid bits on the ins and outs of Jacks Defense.

So to answer Daves questions on wheres the safety/ safeties.........
this D runs an inverted cover 2 where the corners are basically your safeties and your Mike is a safety LB hybrid that has multiple hats based upon play and as such your mike needs to be your best player smarts and talent wise
Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2019, 10:29:40 AM »
A broken play is the worst thing to defend in little man football.

And one of the most common.  I'd venture to guess that the percentage of touchdowns from "explosive plays" (more than 20 yards) is higher at the 7-9 level, than any other.  I coached 7-9s for five (long) years (four as a header) and what I usually saw was fumble, penalty, scrum, fumble, penalty, scrum, big play touchdown.  Fumble, penalty, scrum, fumble, penalty, scrum, big play touchdown.  No one was running the ball down the field on possessions of 11-17 plays.  Everything was geared outside and defenses lined up as if the rules mandated that all 11 defenders had to be in the box.  The incomprehensible aspect of defense (at least to me) was why if all of the touchdowns are from sweeps, reverses and broken plays that get outside, weren't defensive coordinators putting their defenders outside to take away this Big Play(?)  When I coached that age-level, we were wide and deep (with 2 high Safeties); not to defend against the pass (although one of my Safeties in our first undefeated season of 2000 had 6 interceptions in 8 games), but to defend against The Big Play.  Having three levels of defenders kept our opponent's offense in front of us, and out of the end zone.

--Dave
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Offline coachgregory

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2019, 11:59:07 AM »
So my 7-8's got hit with a pass.  The pass was thrown to a receiver lined up left (a TE?  FL?  I was on the other side of the field and don't know) who ran a crossing route.  He caught the pass 15 yards downfield thrown by the QB 10 yards behind the LOS for a 25 yard throw.  The QB did not look like he was trying to throw.  It looked like a busted play to the right.  Then QB recovered and there goes the ball over my head to wide open, uncovered receiver behind. 

The corner to the side receiver lined up on is a 7 year old, two foot dwarf who can run fast.  He three step drops but likely has no clue what a pass even is.  I had him at 4 yards deep as I expecting run at this age group and not a 25 yard throw to the opposite side of the field. 

So, for those who have been there, what should I be doing with that corner?

Did the corner take his initial 3 step drop?

What was the actual path of the QB?  If flat think pass.  QB runs flat to gain width and distance away from pressure so they can pass.  We teach our defenders if a runner is flat you have to be thinking pass next level.


What happened to the playside and back side DE’s?  What was their technique?

Jack
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 12:20:36 AM »
Did the corner take his initial 3 step drop?

What was the actual path of the QB?  If flat think pass.  QB runs flat to gain width and distance away from pressure so they can pass.  We teach our defenders if a runner is flat you have to be thinking pass next level.


What happened to the playside and back side DE’s?  What was their technique?

Jack

The QB ran boot right.  He was almost 10 yards deep (maybe 7-8) and probably another 8 yards wide.  They lined a stud up right over my playside dog (OLB/DE) to keep him out (It worked.).  He was on LOS (might have been an SE). I had dog key near back (split backs).  Don't know what near back did but stud tangled up my Dog.   

Don't know what BS did but tiny tyke corner would have been at 4 yards, three step dropping.  Obviously I can't do 4 yards but I have never seen an 8 year old throw 25 yards before.  Corner is fast and determined but very small.   Need a depth for him to play for this age group and a read.

They had this pass planned all the way.  It looked like a busted QB sweep as QB had ball tucked and then threw with our jerseys all over him.  I thought he was tackled and reaper was pulled in thinking run.

They ran an earlier pass to a back.  He came straight at the corner, brush blocked him, and then slipped into the flat but QB was sacked.  They might have had the receiver on this play do the same to the other corner and then turn inside.  Not quite sure what to do with a 49 pound 7 year old.  Don't want to set him up to fail.  My first experience with 7's.  The reaper had no instruction but it looked like run to me too so can't blame him.
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 12:41:56 AM »
Since he posted in Jacks portion I think he's running a close 6-3 to Jacks.

Yes.  It's Jack's 6-3 in "Red" (Though the organization I'm coaching for doesn't seem to know that.).


Quote
Which is one of the only reasons I would reply as I know Clark is far more intelligent than I, but I do have a good amount of experience with this Defense and when Clark was designing his KB there was a collaboration with about 2-3 other coaches helping him with tid bits on the ins and outs of Jacks Defense.

Jack sent me a copy.   :)

Too bad the organization is not running Jack's offense.  I'm running a two TE wishbone.  I'm not allowed to run "B" gaps, not allowed to cross block, they hate wedge and toss, they want 7 year old backs 5 yards deep, FB at 4, and they want me to hand off to those 5 yard deep backs on a sweep with QB under center and then boot.  I'm left wondering how they could come up with Jack's "D" and yet come up with this offense. 
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Offline coachgregory

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 11:41:35 AM »
The QB ran boot right.  He was almost 10 yards deep (maybe 7-8) and probably another 8 yards wide.  They lined a stud up right over my playside dog (OLB/DE) to keep him out (It worked.).  He was on LOS (might have been an SE). I had dog key near back (split backs).  Don't know what near back did but stud tangled up my Dog.   

Don't know what BS did but tiny tyke corner would have been at 4 yards, three step dropping.  Obviously I can't do 4 yards but I have never seen an 8 year old throw 25 yards before.  Corner is fast and determined but very small.   Need a depth for him to play for this age group and a read.

They had this pass planned all the way.  It looked like a busted QB sweep as QB had ball tucked and then threw with our jerseys all over him.  I thought he was tackled and reaper was pulled in thinking run.

They ran an earlier pass to a back.  He came straight at the corner, brush blocked him, and then slipped into the flat but QB was sacked.  They might have had the receiver on this play do the same to the other corner and then turn inside.  Not quite sure what to do with a 49 pound 7 year old.  Don't want to set him up to fail.  My first experience with 7's.  The reaper had no instruction but it looked like run to me too so can't blame him.

The depth of the CB's in the 63 is more important against the run than the pass at that age level to have that third level above the MIKE and OLB's.  6 to 8 yards would be a better set up.  The reason being is if for some reason that kid doesn't take his 3 step he is still in a reasonable position to recover and defender against the pass.  At 4 yards defending a pass with the receiver 9 yards deep and going away is not going to be recoverable. 

The path of the runner in the backfield is really important.  Be it QB or RB if his path is flat the CB's must be thinking pass.  They are the only primary pass defenders even at the age of 7.  So if a back boots and he is flat as he rolls the PSCB must check his zone and gain depth instead of contain.  This can be hard for a CB to understand when you rep the "Shoot the sidelines" so much.  The HB pass was a killer one year against us so we had to be ready to defend it.  The key is be it a QB or a RB their path is going to flatten out as they move away from the center.  A sweep the runner is trying to get to the LOS and breach it.  A passer is not trying to breach the LOS initially so their path is flat until the move from PASS to RUN.    That is the key.  So we teach our PASS defender IF FLAT THINK PASS.  In RED that would be the same for the RED backers.  This takes reps as the instinctive thing for the LB to do as the take their initial steps is to respond to run and make their run fit.  The more they see BOOT and HB pass in practice mixed with sweeps the better they get at responding to it.

The key is IF FLAT THINK PASS...I can't say that enough :)

Jack
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Online mahonz

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 12:46:41 PM »
So my 7-8's got hit with a pass.  The pass was thrown to a receiver lined up left (a TE?  FL?  I was on the other side of the field and don't know) who ran a crossing route.  He caught the pass 15 yards downfield thrown by the QB 10 yards behind the LOS for a 25 yard throw.  The QB did not look like he was trying to throw.  It looked like a busted play to the right.  Then QB recovered and there goes the ball over my head to wide open, uncovered receiver behind. 

The corner to the side receiver lined up on is a 7 year old, two foot dwarf who can run fast.  He three step drops but likely has no clue what a pass even is.  I had him at 4 yards deep as I expecting run at this age group and not a 25 yard throw to the opposite side of the field. 

So, for those who have been there, what should I be doing with that corner?

Honestly at this level....so early in the season....be thankful your DG wasn't downfield going for the interception.  8)

The TE crossing route.....was a fav when I coached Semi Pros because he too was always wide open !

To solve these issues is to scout your opponent. Then work on what they are good at that week.  It is near impossible to teach a Defense to Smurfs and expect them to be able to cover everything on the fly. That is going to take a few seasons.

Baby steps are required so a good scout is pure gold.
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Offline DumCoach

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Re: Defending pass with 7-8's
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2019, 07:16:18 PM »
The depth of the CB's in the 63 is more important against the run than the pass at that age level to have that third level above the MIKE and OLB's.  6 to 8 yards would be a better set up.  The reason being is if for some reason that kid doesn't take his 3 step he is still in a reasonable position to recover and defender against the pass.  At 4 yards defending a pass with the receiver 9 yards deep and going away is not going to be recoverable. 

The path of the runner in the backfield is really important.  Be it QB or RB if his path is flat the CB's must be thinking pass.  They are the only primary pass defenders even at the age of 7.  So if a back boots and he is flat as he rolls the PSCB must check his zone and gain depth instead of contain.  This can be hard for a CB to understand when you rep the "Shoot the sidelines" so much.  The HB pass was a killer one year against us so we had to be ready to defend it.  The key is be it a QB or a RB their path is going to flatten out as they move away from the center.  A sweep the runner is trying to get to the LOS and breach it.  A passer is not trying to breach the LOS initially so their path is flat until the move from PASS to RUN.    That is the key.  So we teach our PASS defender IF FLAT THINK PASS.  In RED that would be the same for the RED backers.  This takes reps as the instinctive thing for the LB to do as the take their initial steps is to respond to run and make their run fit.  The more they see BOOT and HB pass in practice mixed with sweeps the better they get at responding to it.

The key is IF FLAT THINK PASS...I can't say that enough :)

Jack

Thanks, Jack.  I agree with recognizing a flat outside release by back or QB.  That is the solution.   :)
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