Author Topic: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)  (Read 401 times)

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Offline vikingdw

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2019, 02:18:51 AM »
I agree with Mahonz. From my angle it looked like the BB was far enough back to not break the plane of the snapper's waist, I believe that's what the ref was looking for. I've had it called on me only one time when I was coaching in Georgia probably 12 years ago and we just told the BB to scoot back a half step. No problem after that. Here's the rule...
ART. 3 . . . A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking
the plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage
through the waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line,
except for the player under the snapper, who is also considered a back.

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2019, 02:19:32 AM »
The only thing I can think of is that the org might have rule against anyone other than the QB taking a snap. I mention that because the Georgia Recreation and Park Association has this rule:

"In the 7U and 8U divisions, a defensive player is not allowed to line up over the center. As a result of this rule, there will be no quarterback sneaks. The QB must be led by a running back if running up the middle. The QB may run outside the guards and there are no direct snaps to anyone other than the quarterback. The penalty for this infraction is the same as illegal formation."

I put the whole rule in there just to give some background on why it's there.

Ya, no such rules here. we’re playing real football w/ HS rules, just no kickoffs.
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 09:23:51 AM »
I agree with Mahonz. From my angle it looked like the BB was far enough back to not break the plane of the snapper's waist, I believe that's what the ref was looking for. I've had it called on me only one time when I was coaching in Georgia probably 12 years ago and we just told the BB to scoot back a half step. No problem after that. Here's the rule...
ART. 3 . . . A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking
the plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage
through the waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line,
except for the player under the snapper, who is also considered a back.
Note that it's not about the snapper's waist, but that of the nearest line player.  If the blocking back's breaking the plane of the nearest OL's waist, they could say you were snapping the ball to a lineman.

They could also say it's illegal formation if he's breaking the plane of the nearest OL's waist but not that of the snapper, but maybe that was never flagged if that player didn't get the snap because there was no advantage to that positioning -- same way as they'll cut slack on WRs' positioning.

Offline terrypjohnson

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2019, 10:07:57 AM »
Ya, no such rules here. we’re playing real football w/ HS rules, just no kickoffs.

Except for the ones that they make up on the fly ;-)

Offline Dimson

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2019, 11:38:00 AM »
Watching some scout film. One of the teams was an UBSW. The white hat is behind the offense and off to the side a bit looking VERY intently at the sniffer back.  SW team runs wedge, ref throws a flag. Turns out he was flagging them every time the sniffer got the ball.

I spoke to the coach of the team to confirm. Said they couldn’t run wedge all game. Unreal. lol
My guess is the opposing coach brought it up to the ref pre game and this led to the ref paying extra attention to it.

Offline mahonz

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2019, 11:49:01 AM »
Note that it's not about the snapper's waist, but that of the nearest line player.  If the blocking back's breaking the plane of the nearest OL's waist, they could say you were snapping the ball to a lineman.

They could also say it's illegal formation if he's breaking the plane of the nearest OL's waist but not that of the snapper, but maybe that was never flagged if that player didn't get the snap because there was no advantage to that positioning -- same way as they'll cut slack on WRs' positioning.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2019, 03:37:13 PM »
Note that it's not about the snapper's waist, but that of the nearest line player. 

Ok I know I'm just a dum youth coach but with this rule as you interpret it, it says you can have a line "Bow" back to where everyone besides the center and 2 guards are in the backfield.
I thought it ALWAYS had to do with the centers/ Snappers waist

This just doesn't make sense to a dum youth coach like myself

I never knew the rule was interpreted this way.
Robert

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Offline Seabass

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2019, 03:44:52 PM »
Last week, we were repeatedly warned that our Tackles were too deep off the ball. One in particular was deeper that I wanted him to be. His helmet wasn't deeper than the G's but was deeper than the C. I always thought that the G's and T's helmet had to crease the hip of the C.

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2019, 03:49:18 PM »
Last week, we were repeatedly warned that our Tackles were too deep off the ball. One in particular was deeper that I wanted him to be. His helmet wasn't deeper than the G's but was deeper than the C. I always thought that the G's and T's helmet had to crease the hip of the C.
Kinda what I was thinking

The centers waist is what constitutes who's on the line and who's in the backfield is what I have always been taught and learned. Formations start with the snapper.

Who knew I'de been teaching it wrong all these years ::) :o

Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2019, 06:43:50 PM »
Ok I know I'm just a dum youth coach but with this rule as you interpret it, it says you can have a line "Bow" back to where everyone besides the center and 2 guards are in the backfield.
I thought it ALWAYS had to do with the centers/ Snappers waist

This just doesn't make sense to a dum youth coach like myself

I never knew the rule was interpreted this way.
There are two separate requirements.  One is that you have no more than 4 players who are not on the line.  The other is that you have no players who aren't either in the backfield or on the line.

Whether a player is on the line depends on positioning relative to the snapper's waist.

Whether a player is in the backfield depends on positioning relative to the nearest player who's on the line, or to being the one and only one player in position to take a handed snap between the snapper's legs.

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2019, 06:44:57 PM »
Last week, we were repeatedly warned that our Tackles were too deep off the ball. One in particular was deeper that I wanted him to be. His helmet wasn't deeper than the G's but was deeper than the C. I always thought that the G's and T's helmet had to crease the hip of the C.
They do.

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2019, 06:52:09 PM »
One is that you have no more than 4 players who are not on the line.
Got it
Quote
The other is that you have no players who aren't either in the backfield or on the line.
WTF?  Read that 4 times still makes zero sense.
There is only 2 genders. Either you are on the line or not on the line. "You either with us or against us" (Pres Bush)
Sidelines? do they mean sidelines.

Quote
Whether a player is on the line depends on positioning relative to the snapper's waist.
Quote
it's not about the snapper's waist
Now I am really confused

Quote
Whether a player is in the backfield depends on positioning relative to the nearest player who's on the line, or to being the one and only one player in position to take a handed snap between the snapper's legs.
Wait, aren't you the one that does the sidesaddle? Does that go between the legs.

No wonder refs cant get this straight.
Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2019, 10:00:09 PM »
WTF?  Read that 4 times still makes zero sense.
There is only 2 genders. Either you are on the line or not on the line. "You either with us or against us" (Pres Bush)
It's possible, but illegal at the snap, for a player who is not on the line to not be in the backfield.  Being in the backfield is not just a matter of not being on the line.  You have to not break the plane of the waist of the nearest lineman.
Quote
Wait, aren't you the one that does the sidesaddle? Does that go between the legs.
Doesn't matter which way he's facing.  If the QB sticks his hands under, he's breaking the plane of the nearest lineman's waist.  However, he's not doing so with his head.  (Actually in some cases the QB does so, but the officials cut some slack there.)  So he's not a lineman, and he wouldn't be a back, so a separate provision has to be made for him to make it legal.

Yes, the sidesaddle QB is in position to take a snap between the snapper's legs.  It doesn't necessarily go to him.  And if the snapper snapped the ball somewhere else (like slinging it to a player out to the side in the backfield), the formation's still legal.

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2019, 10:13:46 PM »
The other is that you have no players who aren't either in the backfield or on the line.

Got it WTF?  Read that 4 times still makes zero sense.
There is only 2 genders. Either you are on the line or not on the line.

Actually, what Bob says is correct.  Players have to be either on the line of scrimmage, or in the backfield.  But there is a "nether-zone" between the LOS and backfield, that players are forbidden from lining up in.  I have experienced this with my Fullback on numerous occasions.  Because he's offset in the sniffer position, refs want me to line him up deeper in the "backfield." 

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Offline 32wedge

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Re: Man these refs are idiots... (SW issues)
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2019, 06:46:44 AM »

There is only 2 genders. Either you are on the line or not on the line.

Wait, aren't you the one that does the sidesaddle? Does that go between the legs.


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