Author Topic: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)  (Read 112 times)

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Offline coachgregory

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Figured I would start a new topic on this as it will probably generate more discussion. 

I have been running the double wing since the mid 90's and I have gone full circle on this thought process a few times.  From being a traditionalist and using the DTDW formation to moving in and out of different formations and back again.  Having run up against bigger, faster, stronger, better players on numerous occasions mixed with decent to good coaching presents problems to the theory of staying in one formation. 

I think there is a point to be made about not staying in the same formation and allowing a good defense with good players and coaches to get "comfortable" seeing the same look over and over.  At some point they are going to see patterns develop in that "look" and they will start to respond in kind.  This is only natural and it comes from good coaching and good technique.  So why play into it...  Why be a balanced formation team only?  Why be a unbalanced team only?  Why be a DTDW team only?  This is my opinion and only one person's opinion...so take it with a grain of salt but why not be all of those things so that you can present a "different look" to the defense.  This is easy to do and it presents a real problem for the defense.  It forces them to defend the offense and not just the formation and it takes away the ability to read and react to "patterns".  Good players, without really even knowing why they do it, will start to adapt to what they are seeing over and over.  This pattern development by defense can make it appear as if your offense is slowing because the DC is adapting to your play calling when actually what is happening is the players are naturally learning the offensive pattern and rhythm you are presenting to it from the same look.  You can eliminate this by simply tweaking the "look" of your formation but still run the same plays over and over.  This is nothing ground breaking and it is not new but it is practical...it just that double-wingers are by our very nature hard headed...  It's ok to like a polo shirt instead of t-shirt...but change the color and pattern up every once in a while :)

This is my take...

First you need to figure out if you are going to be Under Center (UC), Shotgun (SG), or Direct Snap (DS). 
 
Second you need to figure out what is your base formation.  I have run this offense from a lot of different formations using UC, SG, and DS.  They all work and all it takes  is a few tweaks on set up and footwork.  I have run this I formation, pro set, shot gun spread, single-wing looks (my preference) and a host of other looks. 

Third are you going to use ON-OVER-OFFSET.   This is any easy one for us as the answer is always yes but that is not always the case for everyone because there is reluctance in using unbalanced looks but I am going to attempt to sell you on the many benefits of this as we go :)

Fourth you need to determine if you want to run edge tags and which ones.  This is also an easy one for me and I always have at least two and often by the end of the season I have one or two more that we show to different teams due to how they run their defense against us.

Jack
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 01:45:19 PM by coachgregory »
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Offline coachgregory

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2019, 12:27:42 PM »
Advantages of Being Under Center

1) Less teaching required for the snap. 
2) Less chance of a turnover/loss of yardage due to snap. 
3) Hiding the ball is easier.
4) Ball is closer to the line of scrimmage and in one player's hands every play.
5) Wedge hits faster...higher yards per play out of wedge.
6) BB/FB is more hidden and easier to run wedge/trap/counter plays as well as slip into the flat.

Disadvantages of Being Under Center

1) QB hand placement/pull out early causes fumble.  (easy to correct but it does present a problem with young/inexperienced QB's)
2) Backside Pullers running into QB/BB (congestion at the LOS with pullers).
3) Issues with inside counter plays and spacing/depth
4) Passing can be slow to develop especially at the younger age levels due to QB getting into place for solid protection.
((CONGESTION IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE!!!))

Feel free to list any others I missed or you can think of as well!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 12:36:23 PM by coachgregory »
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Offline Bill03

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2019, 01:38:43 PM »
Jack, me personally I like under center alittle more for lot of the reason you posted. My son is installing more gun this year. Just a small package ..Last year our biggest issue were the snap and the Guards running into the qb. This year 95%  better with both problems. This is our qb second year playing the position so I believe it helps , not a big kid but very quick and fast. we have installed on and over for the past couple of years with success.. wing on I'm still trying to pull two. On and over I don't pull at all ..  We are experimenting with loose formation alittle now.
I would love to feel more confident in different formations , for what ever reason I don't yet !
It's our fourth year now so we are getting a better understanding on what it should look like. We learned a lot from people here. So please keep writing posts.

Bill Sr

Offline coachgregory

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2019, 02:02:29 PM »
Jack, me personally I like under center alittle more for lot of the reason you posted. My son is installing more gun this year. Just a small package ..Last year our biggest issue were the snap and the Guards running into the qb. This year 95%  better with both problems. This is our qb second year playing the position so I believe it helps , not a big kid but very quick and fast. we have installed on and over for the past couple of years with success.. wing on I'm still trying to pull two. On and over I don't pull at all ..  We are experimenting with loose formation alittle now.
I would love to feel more confident in different formations , for what ever reason I don't yet !
It's our fourth year now so we are getting a better understanding on what it should look like. We learned a lot from people here. So please keep writing posts.

Bill Sr

It really is all about our comfort level as coaches.  Feeling comfortable teaching it and calling it can often be two completely different things...  Hopefully these discussions will help.

I didn't feel comfortable with the offense until year three and I didn't really alter much until year four...   

One of the things you need to consider is the main benefit of the double wing philosophy is giving a perception of strength to each side, be it balanced line or unbalanced line, and then attacking a side with additional pullers from the backside as well as blockers from the backfield to overwhelm the point of attack.  Making the defense overreact to a perceived flow of strength to the point of attack by the offense.  Going on-over-offset shouldn't radically change your scheme but make it easier for you to accomplish that goal.

ON for us just puts the WB on the wall.  So for us that means he joins the TKO wall and doesn't execute his base rule - outside width step, release,  and block FBI.  Now he simply executes LEG and is part of the TKO wall.  The benefit is you get a more powerful wash on a 4 to 6 tech.

OVER allows us to move into a unbalanced look by moving the BST into the wall between the OT and TE.  The obvious benefit is that you increase the wall the same way as above.  The other benefit to OVER is if there are issues with your BST getting vertical (c block) into the alley to make that vertical lane then going OVER puts him play side and eliminates that issue.  With OVER we simply loss the seal or alley block but we are still pulling our BSG who kicks out third level (BB 1st level and QB 2nd level) per JJ Lawson's TKO teaching method.

OFFSET this simply shifts the BB over one man. This allows him to get to his kick out or log block faster.  Get into his flat faster...  and in some cases give the appearance of a bunch look  - which will send some youth defenses into a tizzy.  It can also benefit your BB counter and BB counter trap game with a little more space/time. 

The three used in combination can have an overwhelming effect on the defense with POWER and POWER SWEEP.  It also helps to influence the defense into over aligning to the formation and gives you 2 or less look on the backside perimeter which opens up your  counter/reverse game.

In POWER SCHEME we are always pulling at least one man from the backside and we are sending backs into the blocking scheme or faking power sweep to force the defense to account for numbers and action.

That is my thinking on it...ON-OVER-OFFSET is one of my favorite tools to use in this offense.

 
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Offline coachgregory

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 04:24:08 PM »
Advantages of Shotgun

1) shotgun snap to QB only simplifies the QB/Center handoff exchange.   Nervous QB's that don't like to be at/near the LOS who tend to drift away from center, don't place hands correctly, or pull away early is eliminated.
2) centers who naturally shotgun snap better and move better than snapping UC.
3) removes the congestion/spacing issue of UC for pullers and inside counter/trap plays.
4) allows the QB to get into his blocking lane down hill.
5) allows the QB a better approach for power/iso/counter plays. 
6) easier to teach option/read and sweep with QB.
7) Passing game from a footwork/technique issue is easier for passer and allows for improved timing.

Disadvantages

1) QB/BB is no longer hidden.
2) Wedge yardage at snap is diminished.
3) QB gets sloppy/lazing on power footwork/blocking footwork.
4) shotgun snap can cause fumble for loss of yardage/turnovers increases.
5) misdirection game is diminished with QB backed up for better visibility by the LB's and Secondary.
6) More teaching required for the center snap/QB securing the snap.

I might have missed a few on either side so feel free to chime in :)

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Offline coachgregory

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 04:54:06 PM »
Advantages of Direct Snap

1) Eliminates the congestion issue with UC.
2) Improves blocking angles/technique for the QB.
3) Allows the QB an improved running lane for POWER and POWER SWEEP.
4) Allows for easier technique/footwork for the QB in READ/Option
5) Puts the ball DIRECTLY into the hands of the runner.  This is a big one for me...it eliminates the snap to handoff time from center-qb-running back and however small that times is it improves the hit time the ball gets to the LOS which forces a faster response by the defense to fill/run fit.
6) Improved misdirection as you can carry out run fakes as if every back as the ball.  This is significant with combined with 1 and 5. 
7) Improved passing game in the same manner as SG due to the QB being away from center and already in the pocket spot.
(note: most of the advantage of SG apply to DS)
8) LINES OF FORCE can be set presnap to show a direction which forces a defense to react much in the same way as motion does in the DTDW (UC).


Disadvantages of Direct Snap

1) Additional complexity and skills for center to direct snap to each member of the backfield.  This can be mitigated by using a snapping line that puts all the backs inline with a the snap so they can essentially snatch/catch the snap. 
2) Wedge play is reduced due to QB/BB not being UC and closer to the line of scrimmage.
3) Trap plays are a bit harder to run with the loss of hiding as is misdirection.  However, this can be mitigated by the backfield alignment and the use of flow (full/split) to force the defense to respond due to the benefit of getting the ball DIRECTLY into the hands of the runner.

For me direct snap is a great mix of both under center and shotgun.  It gives me the best of both worlds and the success of the single wing in many ways is a direct reflection to the ability to get the ball directly into the hands of the primary runner.  Misdirection can then flow from more than one primary ball handler which creates a multitude of opportunities. 

My preference is to use DIRECT SNAP and utilize UNDER CENTER and SHOTGUN as "different looks".  Once you get a defense thinking about having to watch every back's movements it forces them to respond to every thing happening in the backfield and that in my opinion opens up a lot of avenues to misdirect them away from the ball.  So even though I think UC DTDW has the best ability to hide the ball in traps and inside counters I think that overall the ability to misdirect with multiple ball handlers is far greater in a DS DW.  My two cents...not that it is worth much to anyone but me :)

Jack
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 05:07:06 PM by coachgregory »
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Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 06:04:24 PM »
not that it is worth much to anyone but me :)

Jack

For the first time ever I get to tell you this......

You're wrong  ;D

Robert

2 Things my offense will always have is a Wing and a Wedge

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 07:42:17 PM »
Going on-over-offset shouldn't radically change your scheme but make it easier for you to accomplish that goal.

--^ Well said.

ON for us just puts the WB on the wall.

--I use this because of you.

OVER allows us to move into a unbalanced look by moving the BST into the wall between the OT and TE.

--I use this because of you.

OFFSET this simply shifts the BB over one man.

--I use this because of you.

This allows him to get to his kick out or log block faster.  Get into his flat faster...  and in some cases give the appearance of a bunch look  - which will send some youth defenses into a tizzy.  It can also benefit your BB counter and BB counter trap game with a little more space/time.

--All this.  Plus, QB can hand off on Wedge without having to get out of the way (which is always a tell when you run Wedge with the BB directly behind the QB).

The three used in combination can have an overwhelming effect on the defense with POWER and POWER SWEEP.  It also helps to influence the defense into over aligning to the formation and gives you 2 or less look on the backside perimeter which opens up your counter/reverse game.

--I use this because of you.

That is my thinking on it...ON-OVER-OFFSET is one of my favorite tools to use in this offense.

--As it is in mine.  Thank you Jack.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 07:45:36 PM »
Advantages of Being Under Center

1) Less teaching required for the snap. 
2) Less chance of a turnover/loss of yardage due to snap. 
3) Hiding the ball is easier.
4) Ball is closer to the line of scrimmage and in one player's hands every play.
5) Wedge hits faster...higher yards per play out of wedge.
6) BB/FB is more hidden and easier to run wedge/trap/counter plays as well as slip into the flat.

This is why my preference is Under Center.  Even at the high school level, Wedge not only worked well, it worked big.  Always our best play and being Under Center makes it go.

--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline coachgregory

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Re: Setting up the YDW Formations (Formations, Edge Tags, Motion and Shifting)
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2019, 11:38:36 AM »
For the first time ever I get to tell you this......

You're wrong  ;D

I get told I am wrong every day...my wife makes sure of it :)

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