Author Topic: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?  (Read 160 times)

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« on: October 07, 2019, 11:26:38 AM »
As you may know from other threads, I've been coaching since 2017 in a wing T system that apes the local high school, whose name we use although we're a 501(c)3 independent club.  In 2017 our HC didn't even follow those instructions right, but did in 2018 following my suggestions.  This season our OC has eliminated the reverse pivot in the 20 (buck sweep) series but kept it in the belly (80?) series, for reasons I've discussed in another thread, including that the HS has done so as well, according to him.

I've noticed that wing T is very sensitive to geometry.  For instance, last season our left guard's sometimes thru lack of discipline cutting down his split to the center just a little messed up at least our counters.  Some years ago I would not have thought that subtle a difference would come thru in results, and it took me some time to catch it in practice.  Clark has written about how that extra foot or so in depth by the FB helps in the usual wing T systems as well as his own "DC" version, although last year we found that playing our HB & FB flat worked best for us.

Anyway, I've discussed with our OC and the other coaches the possibility of some other alterations to our system and formation as long as our QB's not reversing out on buck sweep series, and to help our fill blocking as well as simplifying the FB's path.  What I'd like to do is move our FB forward by maybe a yard, have him block on the front side of the sweep, pick up whoever comes thru on waggle, not bend his path but delay on trap, and mix in some quick hitting straight bucks; meanwhile having the QB do a gradual turn on the buck-sweep-waggle sequence instead of stepping side-footed on the midline.

Much of my inspiration comes from systems that play a FB close to the line: blocking back in "I", sniffer in Markham-style DW.  I've seen such systems use a reverse pivot on FB traps, but I think the timing would work just as well by going straight back to him (like on a draw) and giving him the ball to crouch down with for a count, hiding it.  Partly I just have a desire to use our human bowling ball to hit quickly on straight plays like Clark's "Quick" plays, because what good is a trap if it's not set up by straight bucks?  And for the quick hitters I think the FB's forward positioning will help.  And I also think his forward positioning would help a little on an inside lead play we've installed this year, although with our halfback's wide positioning (split by outside leg of the tackle) I don't think the difference will be much.

What I'd like to know is others' experience with mixing guard traps and quick hitters by the FB.

I'd also like to know if moving the FB forward hurts the execution of belly and belly sweep.  As is, with the FB and HB at equal depth, we sometimes have trouble with the FB's side step to get a more "downhill" belly path, and I'm afraid the angle will be even less favorable if he gets the ball shallower.  I'm also concerned with whether the wingback's going to get the ball too shallow on the belly sweep after the fake to the fullback; on the other hand, maybe dong the handoff shallower would help the execution of either our belly or belly sweep.

I also have a little concern about the sweep on the buck sweep series, if the quarterback, instead of facing the back side guard's position, turns his back to the puller.  First of all, does it make a collision or tangled feet more likely, less likely, or no difference, if the QB & G don't face each other?  Second, does the QB's back's being turned toward play side increase the danger of a hit from penetration from behind, and of a fumble?  Third, should the halfback also play shallower if the quarterback's turning to meet him instead of sidestepping to gain depth?


Maybe because we're heading into a lighter part of our schedule, competition-wise -- and our final game being against a pushover -- we'd be willing to experiment with this in the remainder of our season, though I'd expect more to try to influence next season.  Also, I don't know whether this would distract from my interest in getting us to try some guard-over unbalanced line adjustments.  I don't know whether I'd gain "cred" or lose it with the rest of the staff by pushing more more rather than less.

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2019, 12:29:50 PM »
There’s like a billion thoughts in this post Bob. Take em 1 by 1, leave out all the information that has nothing to do w/ your question (IE tax status of your team).

I’ll answer brief questions 1 by 1. One thing that did stand out was you said your HB & FB are even. They should not be even. HB should have his toes on the FB’s heals.
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2019, 12:37:13 PM »
There’s like a billion thoughts in this post Bob.

--Welp, that's our Bob.

Take em 1 by 1, leave out all the information that has nothing to do w/ your question (IE tax status of your team).

--lol.

--Dave

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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2019, 12:48:21 PM »
 leave out all the information that has nothing to do w/ your question (IE tax status of your team).


SQUIRREL  ???
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2019, 01:33:24 PM »

I've noticed that wing T is very sensitive to geometry. 

I'm afraid the angle will be even less favorable if he gets the ball shallower. 

First you have to give in to the lesson that angles help create force. Which is what I was trying to state in an earlier thread.

Clark is the one whom I remember telling me that. Besides I thinks its something to Newtons second law, I think.

I like that you seemed to have drifted over
Robert

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2019, 09:27:23 PM »
I’ll answer brief questions 1 by 1. One thing that did stand out was you said your HB & FB are even. They should not be even. HB should have his toes on the FB’s heals.
What advantage does that give you?  What didn't work as well when the FB was stationed deeper, or the HB shallower?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:35:10 AM by Bob Goodman »

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2019, 01:33:01 PM »
There’s like a billion thoughts in this post Bob. Take em 1 by 1, leave out all the information that has nothing to do w/ your question (IE tax status of your team).
I write 'em like that so people can go in and pick and choose what to respond to -- including even the bit about aping the HS team whose name (only) we use.

Is the large amount of text dissuading people from reading it at all?  Sometimes when I encounter a long thread I postpone reading it because there's so much there, I don't know where to start.  Is it the same with individual messages?
Quote
I’ll answer brief questions 1 by 1. One thing that did stand out was you said your HB & FB are even. They should not be even. HB should have his toes on the FB’s heels.
Thanks, but I was hoping that by now you'd've answered my follow-up question to that.

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2019, 09:49:29 PM »
What advantage does that give you?  What didn't work as well when the FB was stationed deeper, or the HB shallower?

Because when you run DOWN, you’re HB should be motioning behind your FB. If he’s even w/ the FB, then it messes w/ his path. Same when he motions behind the FB to run rocket.

It also puts him at the correct depth for Buck sweep, as well as tackle trap.

Very few Delaware WT teams i’ve seen have their HB & FB even.

In a timing based offense, every inch matters.
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Offline COACH JC

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2019, 09:50:35 PM »
I write 'em like that so people can go in and pick and choose what to respond to -- including even the bit about aping the HS team whose name (only) we use.

Is the large amount of text dissuading people from reading it at all?  Sometimes when I encounter a long thread I postpone reading it because there's so much there, I don't know where to start.  Is it the same with individual messages?Thanks, but I was hoping that by now you'd've answered my follow-up question to that.

Yes, there’s too much going on. It’s much more helpful for everyone to tackle one thing at a time.
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2019, 09:54:21 PM »
Thanks, but I was hoping that by now you'd've answered my follow-up question to that.

Yeah, c'mon Jake, get yourself together.  ::)

--Dave
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 10:56:57 PM »
Because when you run DOWN, you’re HB should be motioning behind your FB. If he’s even w/ the FB, then it messes w/ his path. Same when he motions behind the FB to run rocket.

It also puts him at the correct depth for Buck sweep, as well as tackle trap.
Of all those, we have only buck sweep, but that's enough if it makes a difference.
Quote
Very few Delaware WT teams i’ve seen have their HB & FB even.

In a timing based offense, every inch matters.
I've noticed that.  But it's interesting that, unless my memory fails me, the DumCoach Wing T has the FB about a foot deeper than the HB, because for Clark's timing, that was better on belly.  (I'm going to have to go back and reread what he wrote about that development.)  We started 2 years ago with the FB slightly deeper than the HB, but then flattened them.

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 10:58:20 PM »
Yeah, c'mon Jake, get yourself together.  ::)

--Dave
Well, I wasn't going to say anything, until I saw that he'd posted meanwhile in another thread.

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2019, 02:22:57 AM »
Of all those, we have only buck sweep, but that's enough if it makes a difference.I've noticed that.  But it's interesting that, unless my memory fails me, the DumCoach Wing T has the FB about a foot deeper than the HB, because for Clark's timing, that was better on belly.  (I'm going to have to go back and reread what he wrote about that development.)  We started 2 years ago with the FB slightly deeper than the HB, but then flattened them.

The DCWT has absolutely nothing in common w/ the Delaware Wing T. A DTDW or SW team are closer than a DCWT. If you’re looking for guidance on the Delaware Wing T in the DCWT section, you’re in trouble.

There’s maybe 10 guys on this hoard that really know the DWT inside & out:

Zach
Joe
Me
Sharkbait
Shel
Tito
Coachesturf

Are the one’s that come to mind. Sure there’s a couple i’m missing.
It's all about having fun.  But losing aint fun!

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Mixing traps with quick hits by the FB?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2019, 09:06:56 AM »
If you’re looking for guidance on the Delaware Wing T in the DCWT section, you’re in trouble.

...There’s maybe 10 guys on this hoard that really know the DWT inside & out
OK.  I once sat down with David M. Nelson in his office at the U. of Delaware.  But that's not what I'm looking for now.

No, I'm looking to zero-base my thinking -- or if not zero base, at least lower assumptions.

Once my team started deviating from what I know of Delaware, I said, OK, as long as we're going in this direction, some of these connections no longer make as much sense, so what does make more sense?  That's why I didn't mention Delaware in my subject line or initial questions.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 09:21:10 AM by Bob Goodman »