Author Topic: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking  (Read 669 times)

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Offline spidermac

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2019, 03:37:55 PM »
I completely agree about the feet, and my kids have a bad tendency to stop moving their feet and reach with their hands.  The aggressiveness of the other team really exposed this issue.  My thought on switching to shoulder blocking is maybe they will be less likely to stop moving their feet because reaching with their hands is no longer an option.  To put a shoulder or forearms on a defender requires that you move your entire body into the defender.  I know there is no “easy” fix to this issue.  I just want to explore other options before we get started next season.  Thank you for all the responses.  Keep em coming!

-Chad

Board work....king of the boards, drive and switch...sumo (although you don't need boards for sumo)...we also do a drill we call fast feet...basically, on air, they run their feet for each scheme, it's an EDD for us. We also run fit and when they are older and we are throwing more, we do one on one pass pro...run fits and pass pro are against faster athletic kids...
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2019, 09:25:05 PM »
I have seen this statement or similar ones repeatedly on this site from a number of people.

--No, I think it's just from me.  I've said it multiple times.

It's ignorant at best and if not then just blatantly dishonest.  This is not how hands blocking works at all.

--It may not be how it's supposed to work, but it is what many (if not most) youth linemen that use hands resort to.  It becomes a grab and sling, where the footwork becomes nonexistent because they are relying on their arms/hands.  Can you coach against that?  Sure.  Can you teach kids to use correct technique?  Absolutely.  But the fact is that most kids will resort to what's easiest for them to do.  In our approach, blockers can't rely on hands or grabbing because we've taken away that aspect and given them something that's more violent for them and more uncomfortable for a defender.  So we never have to coach against relying on hands because they aren't given the option in the first place.  And most o-linemen simply aren't violent enough with their hands to make a d-lineman back up.  They simply lockout and get separation: 2 things that I don't want.

In all blocks the legs and hips are what drives the defender.

--100% agree.  Which is why we spend more time on that aspect of the blocking fundamental than any other part.

Some people have the impression that hands blocking is a vertical bench press or something along those lines.  It's not. You don't  try to press or push anybody away, you want to keep them close and stay in their face.

--Yes, but defensive linemen are taught to extend and get hand replacement.  That's much easier to perform on an o-lineman who's using hands.  It's more difficult to do against our technique.

--Dave



"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2019, 09:00:36 AM »
--It may not be how it's supposed to work, but it is what many (if not most) youth linemen that use hands resort to.  It becomes a grab and sling, where the footwork becomes nonexistent because they are relying on their arms/hands.  Can you coach against that?  Sure.  Can you teach kids to use correct technique?  Absolutely.  But the fact is that most kids will resort to what's easiest for them to do.
That's been my objection to teaching hands blocking early too.  It's not a bad technique -- in fact in many situations it's a superior one -- but it encourages bad technique and makes it harder to learn good technique.  Can you overcome that handicap eventually?  Sure, and I've seen that where I've coached (because I wasn't in charge of the order things were taught in) but I'd rather be ahead of the game and have both the stars and the scrubs learn blocking technique that's good body-and-foot-placement-wise, and then have them advance from there as they're capable, whether that's over weeks or years.
Quote
--Yes, but defensive linemen are taught to extend and get hand replacement.  That's much easier to perform on an o-lineman who's using hands.
I agree with that too.  As long as you fire out low (but in control) and quickly enough, the only way your opponent's going to get separation using their hands is to move their feet backwards, and I don't mind that at all.  Once you get your opponent moving backwards, even if they do shed you, they're not coming off in a way conducive to making a tackle.

That last bit is a point Clark has made too regarding blocking on the edge on run plays.  You may look at your own play diagram and conclude geometrically that from that block, the defender's being thrown right into the ballcarrier; but it's not easy to make that tackle when the blocker's in your face.  I think it's easier to coach your blockers to do that than to make a log block, and I'd estimate you're getting 75% of the effect of a log block for 25% of the coaching you'd need.  Do blockers still sometimes wind up reaching out and holding?  Yes, but I don't think we'd see fewer flags if we tried to teach a log technique to average players.

Offline Vince148

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2019, 05:59:09 PM »
I don't believe in hands blocking for a run-based offense, for a variety of reasons.  We use X-Men, which is a forearms technique.  It's violent, physical, we don't get holding penalties (our fists are in our armpits), and it relies on the strongest area of the body (below the waist), instead of the weakest part of the body (the arms & hands) to drive a defender back.

--Dave
Can you explain in more detail what x-man blocking is? I've seen a video by Paul Connor that talks about wing-t shoulder blocking technique. Don't know if it's the same or not.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 06:09:20 PM by Vince148 »

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2019, 11:26:39 PM »
Can you explain in more detail what x-man blocking is? I've seen a video by Paul Connor that talks about wing-t shoulder blocking technique. Don't know if it's the same or not.

It's not shoulder blocking.  It's a forearms block.

--Dave
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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2019, 01:12:22 AM »
Can you explain in more detail what x-man blocking is?
The "x" in x-man is formed by the crossed forearms.

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2019, 10:05:37 AM »
The "x" in x-man is formed by the crossed forearms.

Yes, it's similar to the Wyatt-approach of fists in the pectorals, but our fists are in the opposite armpit.  This overlays the forearms, as opposed to the Wyatt-approach where the fists touch and the forearms are horizontally-even with each other.  The Wyatt-approach gives the blocker a flatter, wider blocking surface.  The X-Men approach turns the forearms into a V, which allows the blocker to catch the defender like an inverted cow-catcher.  :D

Keep in mind that X-Men is appropriate for run-based schemes.  It is a run-block approach and I have never used it in either the Spread or as a pass block IF you back up in pass protection. (We don't.)   Since we run-block all the time in our Double Wing (even on passing plays), X-Men is appropriate for our scheme, from youth to the the high school level.  As a matter of fact, it has worked better for us at the high school level even though I developed it when I was coaching youth ball.  I would definitely recommend it for any run-based offense that uses small-to-non-existent splits, regardless of age group.

--Dave
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:19:43 AM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline Coach TonyM

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2019, 12:54:30 PM »
Yes, it's similar to the Wyatt-approach of fists in the pectorals, but our fists are in the opposite armpit.  This overlays the forearms, as opposed to the Wyatt-approach where the fists touch and the forearms are horizontally-even with each other.  The Wyatt-approach gives the blocker a flatter, wider blocking surface.  The X-Men approach turns the forearms into a V, which allows the blocker to catch the defender like an inverted cow-catcher.  :D

Keep in mind that X-Men is appropriate for run-based schemes.  It is a run-block approach and I have never used it in either the Spread or as a pass block IF you back up in pass protection. (We don't.)   Since we run-block all the time in our Double Wing (even on passing plays), X-Men is appropriate for our scheme, from youth to the the high school level.  As a matter of fact, it has worked better for us at the high school level even though I developed it when I was coaching youth ball.  I would definitely recommend it for any run-based offense that uses small-to-non-existent splits, regardless of age group.

--Dave

Intrigued by this Dave... I have taught your "XMan" block to my fullbacks..  It is how he fakes and attacks a defender, but I have never taught it to my Oline.  I am very interested in doing this with our running game.  So every lineman including fullbacks for kick out or trap block?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 04:53:31 AM by Coach TonyM »

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2019, 02:24:34 PM »
Intrigued by this Dave... I have taught your "XMan" block to my fullbacks..  It is how he fakes and attacks a defender, but I have never taught it to my Oline.  I am very interested in doing this with our running game.  So very lineman including fullbacks for kick out or trap block?

Tony, yes, absolutely as it puts the full force of the body behind the block.  We started this years ago, when we were teaching 2-point stance to our o-linemen.  We used our Linebacker drills on them because we wanted them to play and attack like Linebackers; not like your typical youth o-linemen.  And since we were playing in a 2-point like a Linebacker, it became a very easy and effective transition for our offensive linemen.  Suddenly, they were able to make kill shots like their defensive brethren.

—Dave
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 02:29:20 PM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline Vince148

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2019, 03:45:23 PM »
Tony, yes, absolutely as it puts the full force of the body behind the block.  We started this years ago, when we were teaching 2-point stance to our o-linemen.  We used our Linebacker drills on them because we wanted them to play and attack like Linebackers; not like your typical youth o-linemen.  And since we were playing in a 2-point like a Linebacker, it became a very easy and effective transition for our offensive linemen.  Suddenly, they were able to make kill shots like their defensive brethren.

—Dave
So are they doing this from a 2-point stance or a 3-point stance?

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2019, 03:55:35 PM »
So are they doing this from a 2-point stance or a 3-point stance?

Either/or.  We've used it with both.  But it's been years since I've coached a 2-point stance.  Although we are mandated to use 2-point with the PW team I'm coaching.  But they use hands.

--Dave
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 03:57:40 PM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
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Offline Vince148

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2019, 03:28:19 PM »
Either/or.  We've used it with both.  But it's been years since I've coached a 2-point stance.  Although we are mandated to use 2-point with the PW team I'm coaching.  But they use hands.

--Dave
I'm having trouble picturing this and its technique. At what point are the forearms coming up and making an "X"? When I teach hands blocking, hands are loading on the first step and striking on the second step. This x technique seems like it would cause the blocker to rise even sooner than on a hands block because they would have to be closer to their opponent and it seems like any hip roll would be negligible because of the closer proximity. What am I missing on the technique?

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2019, 03:40:28 PM »
At what point are the forearms coming up and making an "X"?

--If they are on the LOS, then the answer is "ASAP."  If they are coming out of the backfield, they load their arms right before impact.

This x technique seems like it would cause the blocker to rise even sooner than on a hands block because they would have to be closer to their opponent and it seems like any hip roll would be negligible because of the closer proximity. What am I missing on the technique?

--When we taught it from a 2-point stance, I didn't care about "low man wins" because there's many times when he doesn't.  Aggression and technique will defeat simply "getting low."  Besides, as a Double Wing team, many defenses are just trying to bear crawl, log roll, ankle grab us anyway.  We will step on hands, fingers, calves or wash them down the LOS.

--From a 3-point, on the post block we work to get under the pad level of the defender, which is easy to do because they Frankenstein their arms which gives us an easy target to get under.  From there, the hip roll is easy.  However, on the down block in a double team, our down blocker is hitting the defender in the ribs.  So while the "On" block is occupying the defender and/or raising up the defender, the "Down" blocker is hitting him in the ribs.  We're not just trying to move the defender, but hurt him.

--Dave

« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 03:44:42 PM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: Hands Blocking vs Shoulder Blocking
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2019, 04:12:07 PM »
During install, we teach the double uppercut with the forearms with players on their knees who are ripping into the full round/half round/shield.  This is to get them to focus only on the violent impact of the double uppercut movement.  Then we teach leverage so that they understand the difference in playing from weak (tall) to strong (short).  From there we teach footwork, fast feet, short steps, cleat replacement ASAP.  Then we go to "Perfect Coaching" where we start them at fit with their body in the perfect position to make the successful block.  We match them short-technique and against tall-technique, so that they learn why playing from a Power-Position is vital and why playing tall will get you pushed back.  When we match them in board drills, we'll start them at fit in perfect positions so that they both have the best possible opportunity to be successful.  Start them at "perfect" teaches them quicker and more thoroughly what it is that we're looking for, instead of starting them from "distance" between them and hoping that they'll find perfect position.  From there, we'll run ladders, have quick-pull contests, and do our tackle drills so that our guys can run, pull and hit in open space.

As far as teaching goes, nothing and I mean nothing is more fun than teaching kids to block successfully and then seeing them display it on game day.

--Dave
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 04:16:08 PM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope