Author Topic: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?  (Read 5047 times)

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Offline Michael

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2011, 06:47:09 PM »
Aaron Kromer spoke at COOL in 2010.  Great talk.
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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2011, 06:56:30 PM »
Unless you run the a "true" OZ scheme (lateral), your not going to get the combinations that everyone assumes they get from zone blocking.  Yes indeed you can get the tackle to block the Wide 9 using lateral or stretch concepts.

I go back to my original statement that it all depends on what your looking for and your idea of "OZ" blocking.   I also remind folks, as Zoe stated, that OZ DOES NOT mean your 100% about running outside the defense.  Your backs have to be able to read more with zone blocking principles.  As a Coach you cant demand that they hit holes but see "cracks" in the line. I would argue that any zone blocking coach would say the same thing. 

IMHO thats why a Wing-T and zone blocking don't "marry up" as well.  That's why they have specific rules for their systems.

 :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 06:58:05 PM by CoachShad »
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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 05:34:16 AM »
Unless you run the a "true" OZ scheme (lateral), your not going to get the combinations that everyone assumes they get from zone blocking.  Yes indeed you can get the tackle to block the Wide 9 using lateral or stretch concepts.

I go back to my original statement that it all depends on what your looking for and your idea of "OZ" blocking.   I also remind folks, as Zoe stated, that OZ DOES NOT mean your 100% about running outside the defense.  Your backs have to be able to read more with zone blocking principles.  As a Coach you cant demand that they hit holes but see "cracks" in the line. I would argue that any zone blocking coach would say the same thing. 

IMHO thats why a Wing-T and zone blocking don't "marry up" as well.  That's why they have specific rules for their systems.

 :)
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Offline durfee4

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 08:19:11 AM »


IMHO thats why a Wing-T and zone blocking don't "marry up" as well.  That's why they have specific rules for their systems.

 :)
Thats why in our DW we only use pin/zone on our perimeter plays,sweeps,wide reverse,and our iso,s ,when the defense our keying our pullers,and wall side,because we flip our line.Very effective.
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Offline Vince148

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 10:53:18 AM »
IMHO thats why a Wing-T and zone blocking don't "marry up" as well.  That's why they have specific rules for their systems.
I can only agree to a point.

Most colleges, especially those that run out of shotgun, seem to mix and match a variety of different systems. Of course, they have the benefit of much more practice time and high quality talent than what we deal with on the youth level.

Another point to mixing at the youth level is because of the talent involved. I might have an offensive line that can block down for inside traps and powers but have no speed to pull on bucksweep, so I might be forced to run an OZ because the lineman are not fast enough to get out in front of the play. Conversely, I might have small, fast linemen that can pull, but are not strong enough on the inside to handle defensive linemen one on one. So, in this case, I might want to use inside veer or zone so that I can create more leverage by using double teams.

I don't know if this is correct logic, but it seems reasonable enough to me to at least try. If this isn't right, please advise.

Offline seeindouble

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2011, 11:18:51 AM »
You might as well run a power play, because that's what the OZ would end up looking like against the GAM. Between the FB,HB, and WB, you can have a nice little power series to the weakside. Hell, between the QB,FB, and HB, QB power looks good to. And if it's a traditional GAM with below average BCs and DEs who mindlessly box and bearcrawl, then you CAN run outside against it. But the way you run outside against the GAM is NOT OUTSIDE and AROUND the DE, but OUTSIDE and UNDERNEATH the DE...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 11:24:01 AM by seeindouble »

Offline Michael

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2011, 11:33:54 AM »
I think if you pick a decent system, any system, or design one properly on your own, it will have ways to attack the various things you see.

A lot of college schemes are actually just a few concepts, with maybe something integrated from another system (Auburn adapted the Wing T Buck Sweep, for example).

If you try to put together a "greatest hits" package, it might be trouble.

There was a great thread on here a while ago about what plays people have adapted from other systems.  It was pretty interesting.

But I think that stuff is usually about adapting a play to your own system.  It's not usually about adding a second system.  And I've seen several college coaches talk about how even with limited stuff, it's tough to get a freshman or a sophomore up to speed on O-Line, even with all the time they have.
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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2011, 11:42:41 AM »
I can only agree to a point.

Most colleges, especially those that run out of shotgun, seem to mix and match a variety of different systems. Of course, they have the benefit of much more practice time and high quality talent than what we deal with on the youth level.

Another point to mixing at the youth level is because of the talent involved. I might have an offensive line that can block down for inside traps and powers but have no speed to pull on bucksweep, so I might be forced to run an OZ because the lineman are not fast enough to get out in front of the play. Conversely, I might have small, fast linemen that can pull, but are not strong enough on the inside to handle defensive linemen one on one. So, in this case, I might want to use inside veer or zone so that I can create more leverage by using double teams.

I don't know if this is correct logic, but it seems reasonable enough to me to at least try. If this isn't right, please advise.

Vince:

First, I never said never regarding OZ for a Wing-T, it's just unusual!  If you can make it work for you thats great.  Can OZ be run without a TE or Slot? Perhaps, but thats a tuff task to pull off.  I suggest, that the idea is to make blocking as easy as you can for the group involved.  For the same reason you point out for using OZ, I say use IZ and disregard that Wide 9 and make him follow rather than be the focus of your attention.  If you have some capability to pull, then the Counter will make sure that someone is assigned to block him.  When going under center things happen a lot faster than they do from the Gun.  Not saying that you cannot run Wing-T from the gun but I would point out that a lot of what the Wing-T is designed to do as an offense  gets taken away somewhat when using the gun. 

Wing-T:
Deception....Who has the ball?
Misdirection....Which why did it go?
Fast to the Line...No time for the defense to think, just do!

One of the most important things is that the QB or backs should try their best to never let the defense see the ball.  Running from the shotgun takes that idea away completely,  Now it's entirely predicated on your ability o execute to perfection.
Again I did not say you cant use OZ! 

I am all for doing it differently. Unfortunately, a lot of the things you see working on paper don't go the way you think or expect when live bodies start screwing it up!! 

 ;D :D ;) 

Keep poking at it, necessity is the mother of invention!! 

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Offline Vince148

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2011, 12:55:31 PM »
Vince:

First, I never said never regarding OZ for a Wing-T, it's just unusual!
No, I understand what you were saying. It was the "marry" thing that I was questioning.

Quote
If you can make it work for you thats great.  Can OZ be run without a TE or Slot? Perhaps, but thats a tuff task to pull off.  I suggest, that the idea is to make blocking as easy as you can for the group involved.
I agree. As I play around with it more and more, it appears to be easier to run an OS veer to that side instead of a zone read.

Quote
For the same reason you point out for using OZ, I say use IZ and disregard that Wide 9 and make him follow rather than be the focus of your attention.
I wanted OS because I felt it would be easier read for the RB. I don't know if I will have RBs capable of picking the IS holes. So in that respect, I'm thinking of straight ahead power stuff.

Quote
If you have some capability to pull, then the Counter will make sure that someone is assigned to block him.  When going under center things happen a lot faster than they do from the Gun.  Not saying that you cannot run Wing-T from the gun but I would point out that a lot of what the Wing-T is designed to do as an offense  gets taken away somewhat when using the gun. 

Wing-T:
Deception....Who has the ball?
Misdirection....Which why did it go?
Fast to the Line...No time for the defense to think, just do!

One of the most important things is that the QB or backs should try their best to never let the defense see the ball.  Running from the shotgun takes that idea away completely,  Now it's entirely predicated on your ability o execute to perfection.
Again I did not say you cant use OZ!
I understand what you're saying.

Quote
I am all for doing it differently. Unfortunately, a lot of the things you see working on paper don't go the way you think or expect when live bodies start screwing it up!! 

 ;D :D ;) 

Keep poking at it, necessity is the mother of invention!!
Certainly finding that out and that's why I keep asking. Thanks.

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2011, 01:00:58 PM »
I can only agree to a point.

Most colleges, especially those that run out of shotgun, seem to mix and match a variety of different systems. Of course, they have the benefit of much more practice time and high quality talent than what we deal with on the youth level.

Another point to mixing at the youth level is because of the talent involved. I might have an offensive line that can block down for inside traps and powers but have no speed to pull on bucksweep, so I might be forced to run an OZ because the lineman are not fast enough to get out in front of the play. Conversely, I might have small, fast linemen that can pull, but are not strong enough on the inside to handle defensive linemen one on one. So, in this case, I might want to use inside veer or zone so that I can create more leverage by using double teams.

I don't know if this is correct logic, but it seems reasonable enough to me to at least try. If this isn't right, please advise.
You need athletes or some form of athleticism up front regardless of scheme. a non athlete is a non athlete. against good staff, you cant hide those player, a great staff will exploit that.
to me zone blocking is as much about double teams as anything, they just take it another step or two further. which is where you need athletes.
Most shotgun teams running outside zone are doing exactly what i have mentioned and spoke out against, and that is they have turned oz into a sweep play....and its not.
zone and power are not the same play, the defense plays them differently. both off tackle plays but different thinking.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 01:12:48 PM by zoezachary »
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Offline The Hat

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2011, 04:28:59 AM »
There are some defensive alignments you just can't run certain plays with. As an OC, it's your job to recognize those alignments and run a different play...
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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2011, 07:07:48 AM »
Facing a GAM or like a 50 front

............................S
............................B...................C
..C........E.......V..V...V..V....B....E
X.................T..G..C..G..T..TE
...........................QB.............WB

....................HB...FB

OR

..........................S
...C.................B.......B..............C
.............E....V.......V......V..B....E
X.................T..G..C..G..T..TE
..........................QB...............WB

....................HB...FB

However, I am leaning toward doing this from shotgun...


............................B...................S...C
..C........E.......V..V...V..V....B....E
X.................T..G..C..G..T..TE
............................................WB.......FL

..........................QB...FB

OR

...C.................B.......B..............S....C
.............E....V.......V......V..B....E
X.................T..G..C..G..T..TE
............................................WB......FL

..........................QB...FB

Seems like with a formation tag or motion you could get a hat on that E? 

aubtc

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2011, 09:30:28 AM »
Could you jet motion the WB to attack the CB, have the X crack the end, pull the RG and run trap left with FB? 

coach msl

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2011, 10:39:13 AM »
Could you jet motion the WB to attack the CB, have the X crack the end, pull the RG and run trap left with FB?

I think you are setting up some sort of toss sweep here.  The original post was about OZ. Using your WB motion idea, he could slam the weak side E.  In that 50 front he is the guy the RB is reading.  So whichever leverage the wide end chooses, its OK.  In that GAM, that wide guy is a LB and should get washed by someone (your motioning wb) anyway.  I could be wrong, the read is the DE aligned in the 4i.   

So in both cases, given the offensive formations provided versus the 50 and GAM, running OZ to the split end side is fine, as long as you motion, or use a formation varition.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 10:40:52 AM by coach msl »

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Re: How do you block wide DE on OZ to open side?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2011, 04:15:32 PM »
I think you are setting up some sort of toss sweep here.  The original post was about OZ. Using your WB motion idea, he could slam the weak side E.  In that 50 front he is the guy the RB is reading.  So whichever leverage the wide end chooses, its OK.  In that GAM, that wide guy is a LB and should get washed by someone (your motioning wb) anyway.  I could be wrong, the read is the DE aligned in the 4i.   

So in both cases, given the offensive formations provided versus the 50 and GAM, running OZ to the split end side is fine, as long as you motion, or use a formation varition.
once again, let voice that if you are trying to run oz and outflank a 9 tech end then you are missing the whole point of the zone blocking schemes.
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