Author Topic: Monuments  (Read 38842 times)

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Offline dbsesq

Monuments
« on: November 03, 2011, 11:37:44 AM »
I have been doing a lot of reading on Zone blocking (IZ and OZ).  One thing mentioned here and in articles by Alex Gibbs in the importance of the running back understanding his monuments.  My understanding, in a very basic sense, is the for OZ the monument is the TE location at the start of the play and for IZ the monument is the tackle at the start of the play.  The read for the RB on OZ is the edge defender first and then the first player inside.  Regardless of the read he must press is monument and make the cut upon arrival to the monument.

Here is where i am confused (and a confused coach is a bad thing  ;) ).  My understanding is on OZ the RB is looking to determine if his first read gains the outside edge of the offensive player blocking him if he has he looks to his second read to determine if that defender has also gained the outside edge of the offensive player blocking him. 

So, Scenario 1 - Edge defender has not gained outside leverage - RB takes to the edge
      Scenario 2 - Edge Defender has gained outside leverage but next defender has not - RB cuts inside off of outside offensive Player (OT - OZ weak/TE OZ Strong)
      Scenario 3  - Both Defenders have gained outside Leverage - RB will cut inside off of second Offensive player (OG -OZ Weak/OT OZ strong).

Am I heading in the right direction of OZ?

For IZ i am clueless so far.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  I am going to need to teach this to 12/13 year olds next year.

Dave

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 12:23:13 PM »
Dave

As I got into this stuff I was worried that all of this zone business would require some serious dumbing down and eventually not work….like everything else if you are borrowing from the NFL and most of it is just impossible.

I found Coach W on Hueys back when that site just fired up and he was willing to teach me how to teach zone to Smurfs….and he stressed the RB’s role in all of this since the OL is not creating a hole for them per say.

The $64 question becomes….a good zone back must anticipate the zone. At what age can kids playing RB anticipate? What has surprised me even at the adult semi pro level is the #1 pre season choice for the RB position may end up as the backup or playing another position. So if you have issues then stop forcing the round peg into the square hole. It may be the back and not the OL at all that struggles. 

Some just cant see the forest through trees. 

First the backs must practice with the OL and TE’s if you use TE’s for a period of time because zone is an all encompassing thing. If you like to run your EDD’s as separate offensive groups you may be doing yourself a disservice if you do that too much. OL can practice their chutes and what not while back run gauntlets and the like but that should be the minimum. They need to work as a unit as the maximum.

For OZ think of it as a flying wall with pieces of it disappearing. The zone rotates. The faster the zone rotates the better. This means if you are running to the RIGHT TE as the monument then the zone will rotate LEFT. I have actually watched this happen on film many times. The backs must first get it into their young minds that their monument is a PRE SNAP thing….do not flow with the flying wall. Bad things happen then like the QB not being able to get him the football. Backs will want to do this at first. They MUST press their PRE SNAP monument all the way to the LOS, which could very well mean they are playing off the PSOG now.

So…reading the OL or even the DL for the backs.... I have discovered is bad for the young kids. They must read linebackers. They must read the first LB’r to inside of his monument for OZ. That is the position most likely to make the tackle or disrupt the play call but this all depends if you are running one back or two, one TE or two or none at all, shotgun or UC.

So for the sake of helping you understand how I do this and what rotation means…what is your formation?

Optimum IMO for this age group would be Pro I or Ace….meaning use one TE with no shotgun.
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 01:18:22 PM »
I have been doing a lot of reading on Zone blocking (IZ and OZ).  One thing mentioned here and in articles by Alex Gibbs in the importance of the running back understanding his monuments.  My understanding, in a very basic sense, is the for OZ the monument is the TE location at the start of the play and for IZ the monument is the tackle at the start of the play.  The read for the RB on OZ is the edge defender first and then the first player inside.  Regardless of the read he must press is monument and make the cut upon arrival to the monument.

Here is where i am confused (and a confused coach is a bad thing  ;) ).  My understanding is on OZ the RB is looking to determine if his first read gains the outside edge of the offensive player blocking him if he has he looks to his second read to determine if that defender has also gained the outside edge of the offensive player blocking him. 

So, Scenario 1 - Edge defender has not gained outside leverage - RB takes to the edge
      Scenario 2 - Edge Defender has gained outside leverage but next defender has not - RB cuts inside off of outside offensive Player (OT - OZ weak/TE OZ Strong)
      Scenario 3  - Both Defenders have gained outside Leverage - RB will cut inside off of second Offensive player (OG -OZ Weak/OT OZ strong).

Am I heading in the right direction of OZ?

For IZ i am clueless so far.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  I am going to need to teach this to 12/13 year olds next year.

Dave

Yep you got it,....... read the hat of the 1st defender, over our TE, once he commits to the outside , we read the next down lineman inside.


How I taught it to my MS team last year- ....Any time you can see the TE facing the sideline, IE his defender has taken away the outside , Look inside .  If you can see the hole (C gap) plant and get in it ..now!, If not read the next guy inside and look fo daylight.

If you see the hat go out.. we go in,if we see the hat go in we go out
If he goes inside you stretch the play to the outside

« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 01:27:45 PM by CoachKell »
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Offline dbsesq

Re: Monuments
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 02:27:35 PM »
Dave

As I got into this stuff I was worried that all of this zone business would require some serious dumbing down and eventually not work….like everything else if you are borrowing from the NFL and most of it is just impossible.

I found Coach W on Hueys back when that site just fired up and he was willing to teach me how to teach zone to Smurfs….and he stressed the RB’s role in all of this since the OL is not creating a hole for them per say.

The $64 question becomes….a good zone back must anticipate the zone. At what age can kids playing RB anticipate? What has surprised me even at the adult semi pro level is the #1 pre season choice for the RB position may end up as the backup or playing another position. So if you have issues then stop forcing the round peg into the square hole. It may be the back and not the OL at all that struggles. 

Some just cant see the forest through trees. 

First the backs must practice with the OL and TE’s if you use TE’s for a period of time because zone is an all encompassing thing. If you like to run your EDD’s as separate offensive groups you may be doing yourself a disservice if you do that too much. OL can practice their chutes and what not while back run gauntlets and the like but that should be the minimum. They need to work as a unit as the maximum.

For OZ think of it as a flying wall with pieces of it disappearing. The zone rotates. The faster the zone rotates the better. This means if you are running to the RIGHT TE as the monument then the zone will rotate LEFT. I have actually watched this happen on film many times. The backs must first get it into their young minds that their monument is a PRE SNAP thing….do not flow with the flying wall. Bad things happen then like the QB not being able to get him the football. Backs will want to do this at first. They MUST press their PRE SNAP monument all the way to the LOS, which could very well mean they are playing off the PSOG now.

So…reading the OL or even the DL for the backs.... I have discovered is bad for the young kids. They must read linebackers. They must read the first LB’r to inside of his monument for OZ. That is the position most likely to make the tackle or disrupt the play call but this all depends if you are running one back or two, one TE or two or none at all, shotgun or UC.

So for the sake of helping you understand how I do this and what rotation means…what is your formation?

Optimum IMO for this age group would be Pro I or Ace….meaning use one TE with no shotgun.

Great response.  Right now i have no idea on the formation i would be using and am looking for resources to give me the pros and cons of different formations.  I do have QB that can throw and kids that can catch as well as good RBs.  I like the idea of Ace for the constant potential to throw and I would be going from under center.  I would use one TE as i like throwing to the TE and have several kids that can play the position well.  (Basically a solid team with good athletes but not a team of exceptional athletes across the board).

Thank you for pointing out the key on the LBs.  I do understand that the monument is aiming point pre snap but can see how the rotation of the zone could screw with the young minds.  I have no problem running the backs with the line to develop that chemistry and in this past season would do so on a regular basis for timing purposes.

The explanation of the Zone rotating is interesting as in my mind i was seeing the flying wall forming on the right (for a play to the right) but i think i can see how the rotation begins from the left.

My playbook is blank right now and would not even know how to a "name" a play in meaningful way for the kids.  Hopefully i will have the basics down by January/February.  Like i said it is whole new concept to me that is intriguing and i think that by pursuing it and dedicating to it will allow my athletes to be athletes.

I did look for your play book on this site but couldn't find it but did find the up/down system.

Dave

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 05:23:54 PM »
The thing about teaching zone that I have learned is its all about the WHAT IFS…which I really like because football is nothing but what ifs.

You start out with covered / uncovered and go from there. I have not used the Counting methods that some Coaches like but am considering it. It seems like more thinking too me but that is just me.

We teach How to block….not Who to block. If we teach Who to block then we get kids chasing. Its all predicated on what DL does at the snap so the OL must do per that. It’s a$$ backwards really but that’s how it is. 

That lead me to break tradition and not read any first level defender while training backs. It was just too much information. So after going round and round we decided to read first 2nd level defender inside the monument for OZ. One player doing probably one thing….filling. Easy to read for the younger mind.

BUT…this does not work all of the time. You must use formations to clear up the LB’r read and you must teach your TE when he does what why and how. The last time I ran Zone with no TE it was 100% IZ with a group of 12 year olds. We did good but not great but won the big shiny trophy at the end. The years before we ran OZ with a TE and our rushing totals were much better but we didn’t win the big shiny trophy at the end. But….a TE is a must in my mind from now on and he can be split nasty as well. 

So…3x1 run to the TE that is your #1….2x1 run to the TE that is your #1. 3x1 dual slots however you want….2x1 single slot with a FB.

Now the TE knows what why and how and the back plays off that but reads the LB’r to the inside of the monument. You can also run this to the Ghost TE side but you need a FB to take care of the DE more times than not.

Shown is against a base 53. Vs a 40 front wouldn’t change much because you will have linemen definitely climbing with your 6 on their 4 plus a possible FB but by formation you still get clean reads for the back.

Which brings me to the naysayers. Many say….why count on blocking one of the best defenders…a MLB for example with Fat Freddie the Crème Filled Twinkie. Valid. So don’t. Climbing is simply running interference. The DW pundits climb linemen but run them around a wall first. Rare that any of those kids are getting a beautiful open field pancake on any LB’r but by golly they are in the way and keeping those LB’s from filling clean. That is all you want out of your linemen. Get in the way. Thru experience and as the game wears on, they will get on the Lb’rs. Running zone tends to start a bit slow and finish like an explosion. Have to get a feel for the defense.   

So…Very good all around linemen plays TE….next best at OT next to the TE…pretty good at OG…mean and nasty and maybe even a little bit insane at C. Turds on the backside and do a JJ Lawson and flip flop the OL unless you have 6 that qualify. Now they all have their jobs to do that are within a nice neat package. It used to be that we would cut the backside regardless. Not any more. We will sift the backside from now on. Keep everyone on their feet and run interference whenever possible. Fat Freddy can do that just fine.

Finally...if the back sees nothing...FIND A SEAM AND HIT IT WITH NO HAPPY FEET. Live for the next down.

I just threw something simple and basic together but you can see the bigger picture now. Look it over and fire at will with questions whenever you are ready. I would start year one with OZ and then year two add IZ. Different animals really and I am assuming you are teaching experienced kids. Zone will be different for them. You have to wipe the slate clean but at the end of the day you will be very surprised by one thing...a ton of added practice time for the OL since you are not teaching them all the defenses. That I didnt expect. Now you have plenty of time to teach them HOW TO BLOCK....HOW TO RUN AND ROTATE THE ZONE....HOW TO CLIMB....while the backs plug themselves into what the OL is doing.

All encompassing.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 05:27:07 PM by mahonz »
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 07:55:04 PM »
I taught them to number the defenders, this is how they knew who their initial block was supposed to be. otherwise we had everybody trying to double team

The numbering system is only to identify who they are to attempt to block. 
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 10:27:18 PM »
I taught them to number the defenders, this is how they knew who their initial block was supposed to be. otherwise we had everybody trying to double team

The numbering system is only to identify who they are to attempt to block.

Rich

The next oppurtinity I have Im going to give counting a try.
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Offline dbsesq

Re: Monuments
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 10:56:52 PM »
Thanks Mahonz, this is really good stuff.  I will look over and mull it over in my brain and then come back with some questions.  Thanks for your time.

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 06:19:44 AM »
its not hard. read the last down linemen on los. the landmark for the back is the butt of the te, if the de goes out, the back goes inside to read number 2, IF the defensive end goes inside? your back gets north/south right now. If the defensive goes, your back reads the next down linemen  inside
if you let your back at the hs/youth level  "anticipate it? he will bounce it,  and you will then blame it on the zone, and its the adults faults, not the "nfl", when it fails at the premium time.

before you listen to me, mahonz, michael, or anybody else though, get the gibbs tapes and listen to him.
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 06:27:03 AM »
We ran zone this year.

Monuments for us.

OZ = Outside foot of the TE / H
IZ = Outside foot of the G

We used Covered / Uncovered first, Numbers second. (teaching progression)

The rotation conversation is a key to understanding the difference between IZ and OZ.  I encourage you to study on this.

Some thoughts:
OZ    Tell the RB to FLY to his Land mark.  That read usually is NOT cloudy.  DE doesnt usually stand there.  He is kniving inside, or boxing.  VERY seldom will he jam and squat.  So this means the read happens fast. 

IZ    Can be a tougher read.  But we tell our backs to A)  Jam the B gap if theres any daylight at all.  B) NEVER bounce outside.  C) Cutback if B gap is closed - Theres gold in them hills!!!

Backside blocking is big for IZ.  Now, it can be exactly the same as OZ, but it best be damn good or IZ is toast.  We used the following:

Backside Tackle - Bucket Seal 

Without getting to deep, every run play we have the backside tackle bucket seals.  Power, counter, trap, IZ, OZ, and toss.  Same thing.  For us, we are bucket stepping inside, then tracking playside.  Depending on defensive structure, he could block a DL in the B gap, Backer in the B gap, track up towards MLB looking for a flowing LB. 

Backside TE / H uses virtually the same as above, except hes going to block C gap up to backer.

We have the bs G help with the N, if there is one.


LOTTTTSSS of practice.  We spent the majority of our first 8 practices on Gap stuff.  Rode that thru the first 4-5 games before IZ started kicking.  Now, we run a Zone more. 

Have a GREAT boot pass.  Really going to have to study the CPs on this play.  Ball fake is so important.  This play takes care of that DE chasing stuff down from behind.  And its just a great play to run.  We didnt run this near enough this year.


Patience.  If you learn enough to teach this scheme, and if your kids have the basic fundamentals of blocking established, and if you really have the desire to run Zone, then plan to stick it out.  Trust me, you WILL want to run other stuff.  You will say, But this play(s) so much easier.   We started back in late July.  Aug, sept, oct, now Nov and we are still learning and repping the crap out of it.  Had 3 practices a week, spent anywhere from 5 -30 minutes a night on it.  Never had a practice without at least 5 minutes on it.  Even on Gap scheme nights we'd spend 5 then shift to gap. 


Individual period drills.  Lots of good drills out there: punch progression, footwork IQ, Fit Progression, Sumo, 1 0n 1, 2 on 1, 2 on 2, inside drill.


Good luck coach,

msl



« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 06:31:22 AM by coachmsl »
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 11:07:20 AM »
its not hard. read the last down linemen on los. the landmark for the back is the butt of the te, if the de goes out, the back goes inside to read number 2, IF the defensive end goes inside? your back gets north/south right now. If the defensive goes, your back reads the next down linemen  inside
if you let your back at the hs/youth level  "anticipate it? he will bounce it,  and you will then blame it on the zone, and its the adults faults, not the "nfl", when it fails at the premium time.

before you listen to me, mahonz, michael, or anybody else though, get the gibbs tapes and listen to him.

Good advise.
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2011, 11:07:55 AM »
Matt

How did your season go....or is going?
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2011, 11:39:53 AM »
I think these other coaches will agree, that once you start it, you gotta stick with it.  It is almost impossible for your backs and line to really "get it" if you go to other series using different line blocking schemes.  That has been my experience at least. 

And we did a ton of live scrimmaging to get the backs to coordinate with the OL.  It took some time, but when they see it unfolding in front of them, their natural stuff kicks in and its fun to watch.  I am a big OZ and IZ guy.  I am still learning how to teach it but I have already seen it do well.   

Offline dbsesq

Re: Monuments
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2011, 11:41:23 AM »
its not hard. read the last down linemen on los. the landmark for the back is the butt of the te, if the de goes out, the back goes inside to read number 2, IF the defensive end goes inside? your back gets north/south right now. If the defensive goes, your back reads the next down linemen  inside
if you let your back at the hs/youth level  "anticipate it? he will bounce it,  and you will then blame it on the zone, and its the adults faults, not the "nfl", when it fails at the premium time.

before you listen to me, mahonz, michael, or anybody else though, get the gibbs tapes and listen to him.

The Gibbs DVDs are set to arrive on November 8th.


Offline dbsesq

Re: Monuments
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2011, 11:44:18 AM »
I think these other coaches will agree, that once you start it, you gotta stick with it.  It is almost impossible for your backs and line to really "get it" if you go to other series using different line blocking schemes.  That has been my experience at least. 

And we did a ton of live scrimmaging to get the backs to coordinate with the OL.  It took some time, but when they see it unfolding in front of them, their natural stuff kicks in and its fun to watch.  I am a big OZ and IZ guy.  I am still learning how to teach it but I have already seen it do well.   

That is my plan.  I don't really want to mix and match.  I will need to incorporate a passing game but from what i have read and seen the Play Action of the OZ play is really good and if i can get my QB to run (heck of an arm but really slow) then i get a boot play going.  My plan is to first figure out the running game portion and then build to the passing game and which routes work off the action both strong and weak.