Author Topic: Monuments  (Read 38873 times)

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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #210 on: November 19, 2011, 07:18:09 PM »
Mike,

I'll vouch for Mountjoy 1st hand,  I'm one of Bill's disciples, hands down the best mentor/Teacher I have ever had.

Bill talked me to that 6-2 with a 2 win team the previous 3 years,  our 1st year running it. 

After dealing with the mess I had 2 years prior, to me it was like night and day. 

That was with middle school kids though, however Bill has run it with kids as young as 9 I beleive. 

I think it's all how you relay it to your players, I'm lucky, I have access to so many fantastic Zone coaches, like Bill Mountjoy, Kevin Burns, a ton of other coaches, from the NFL, NCAA to top HS coaches. 

Material wise I have to give all of them an A+ and add a few more anything that improves YOU as a coach, improves your team, just have to have a little creativity, and get the power down to the road.

R

I rate Bill very high as well...not for his materials on youth ball necessairly....but more so that he is so accessable.. That is huge.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #211 on: November 19, 2011, 07:21:55 PM »
Maybe willy nilly IS my groove.  McNally has been going since the 60s, and he's STILL tweaking.

...and that could be very ture.

When it comes to running an offensive system...I am as willy nilly as they come.

So...its not a negative trait. Sometimes I think coaches are stuck in a box...like Zoe. Its probably not in his nature to be....willy nilly. Cool .
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Offline Michael

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #212 on: November 19, 2011, 08:13:23 PM »
I took the Tacklle one to heart:

Our tackles had troubles 2 years ago.   I chalked it up to A)  Their job wasnt clear,  B) Their tech necessary wasnt repped enough, C)  I wasnt putting them in possition to be successful. 

This past year we changed schemes as well as vowed to protect the tackles by covering them as much as possible.  (In the run)

Scheme wise, we helped them by making their job the same every run play on the backside.  Zone on a track to MLB.  Use a bucketstep then rip low with backside arm.  If the DLM crosses your face, lock on and drive.  If you can beat him on your tracks, go next level.  This was great for us for many reasons.  Getting that 11 - 12 yo to believe that he can affect the play even from the backside was huge.  It also prevented penatration. 

This may be the furthest thing from what you guys do.  All im trying to say is that making a kids job easier with redunancy is helpful.  When you hear coaches say, we zone backside every run play, thats what their talking about.  Personally, we really liked it and it helped our takles.

Nice quotes.  Which one made the biggest impact on your staff?

Maybe when he talked about about pass pro.  "I like keeping my five guys in, and that's it.  And my coach says 'Well, they can bring one more than we have.'  Well, hell, they can always bring one more than we have."

My rule on pass pro is five get five.  We can't be left without a guy, and we can't double a guy.  But if we have five on five, and it's understood by the ball guys which five we're going to get, and we make our blocks, then the rest of the mess is not our problem.  If the QB gets killed by someone who is not ours, and the OC or HC complains to me, I just say something like, "Yeah, he really hit him hard."  Or something maybe a little more sensitive, depending on the mood.  But it's really given me the confidence to not get caught up in the game of automatically blaming the O-Line, even if it's not their fault.  Otherwise, the O-Line coach and all of the O-Line guys get gun shy, and you miss a lot of blocks while everybody jumps around trying to block six, seven, or eight guys with five O-Linemen.  It can be a vicious cycle.

The tackle thing was huge, too.  Our tackles are almost always up.  I even did it when I coached little dudes.  It's worked so well for us that one game this year the opposing coaches complained about our tackle stances.

I like how he runs Wide Zone to each side and Tight Zone to each side.  Four plays, and that's it.  He talked about coaches talking about how great their counters and traps and draws are.  "Yeah, coach, they're great.  But if you've had a guy come out the last few years, I've seen your film.  And every third play, you're getting tackled for a loss.  That happens to me, I get fired."  And how he talked about the Wide Receivers blocking the Safeties.  Somebody asked how he handles that in Cover 3 compared to Cover 2.  "Cover 2, Cover 3, Cover 6, Cover 40.  Block the Safety."  If you're good enough, everything is simple.  It's not about drawing up 200 plays with 15 possible adjustments each.

I've just learned a ton of stuff from those DVDs (including the one from the C.O.O.L. Clinic which I was in the front row for).  I watch them all the time.
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Offline coachmsl

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #213 on: November 20, 2011, 09:29:53 AM »
Maybe when he talked about about pass pro.  "I like keeping my five guys in, and that's it.  And my coach says 'Well, they can bring one more than we have.'  Well, hell, they can always bring one more than we have."

My rule on pass pro is five get five.  We can't be left without a guy, and we can't double a guy.  But if we have five on five, and it's understood by the ball guys which five we're going to get, and we make our blocks, then the rest of the mess is not our problem.  If the QB gets killed by someone who is not ours, and the OC or HC complains to me, I just say something like, "Yeah, he really hit him hard."  Or something maybe a little more sensitive, depending on the mood.  But it's really given me the confidence to not get caught up in the game of automatically blaming the O-Line, even if it's not their fault.  Otherwise, the O-Line coach and all of the O-Line guys get gun shy, and you miss a lot of blocks while everybody jumps around trying to block six, seven, or eight guys with five O-Linemen.  It can be a vicious cycle.

The tackle thing was huge, too.  Our tackles are almost always up.  I even did it when I coached little dudes.  It's worked so well for us that one game this year the opposing coaches complained about our tackle stances.

I like how he runs Wide Zone to each side and Tight Zone to each side.  Four plays, and that's it.  He talked about coaches talking about how great their counters and traps and draws are.  "Yeah, coach, they're great.  But if you've had a guy come out the last few years, I've seen your film.  And every third play, you're getting tackled for a loss.  That happens to me, I get fired."  And how he talked about the Wide Receivers blocking the Safeties.  Somebody asked how he handles that in Cover 3 compared to Cover 2.  "Cover 2, Cover 3, Cover 6, Cover 40.  Block the Safety."  If you're good enough, everything is simple.  It's not about drawing up 200 plays with 15 possible adjustments each.

I've just learned a ton of stuff from those DVDs (including the one from the C.O.O.L. Clinic which I was in the front row for).  I watch them all the time.

Mike,

You know, I could probably be talked into 2 pointing our Tackles.  Any downside you discovered?
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Offline Michael

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #214 on: November 20, 2011, 10:47:38 AM »
Mike,

You know, I could probably be talked into 2 pointing our Tackles.  Any downside you discovered?

1) Your tackles will ALWAYS want to be up.  They work for you, and not the other way around, but they will definitely like being up.  They sometimes "forget" to get in a 3 when it's called for.
2) You now have to teach two stances.  (On the other hand, I only teach one run block, so that frees up a little time if I need it, I guess.)
3) You need officials (and, ideally, opposing coaches) who know the rules.  We use what I call an Edge 2.  Huge stagger with the back foot at about a 45-degree angle.  Opposing coaches get thrown by the fact that the back foot has nothing to do with making you legal or illegal.  And if your shoulders are turned at all, they can be all over it.  We had a lot of trouble in one game, and then the officials made it worse, so we just went to a 2 the rest of the game.  The next weekend, the league switched to high school officials, and we never had a problem again.
4) Since the tackle has better vision when up, which is good, he can tend to look at where he's going to go, which is bad.
5) We also got called for a false start once when our tackle pointed right as the ball got snapped.

These can all be solved by coaching (except for the part about bad officials), but they are areas we found we needed to address.

Our rule is this:
If you have a defender over you AND a TE next to you, you are down.
Anything else, you are up.

We drop into an unstaggered 2, and then kick the outside foot back.  That helped a lot with keeping the shoulders square.  They tend to narrow their stance when they kick the foot back, so we had to work on keeping the proper width.

The 2-point helped in two ways:
1) The kick-slide to a Wide 9 starts way quicker from an Edge 2 than it does from a 3.
2) When pass blocking a Wide 9 with a TE (who will release) next to you, you can see the Wide 9 the whole time, including before the snap.  In a 2, you can't see much at all.  That helps directly, and it helps indirectly, because the tackle is more confident he can pull it off.  Paul Alexander has said you shouldn't look at the defender until you get to "The Spot", but being able to see the Wide 9 helped us, maybe because I only got these guys after the second game of the season this year.  With a summer to prepare (and to teach the tackle how to get to the spot), the advantage of a 2 over a 3 might have been less, but I'm pretty sure it would still exist.

It didn't hurt us run blocking, because if we were up, I think we were almost always sliding to a Wide 9 (playside), or blocking a LB (backside).  If we had a guy over us, we were down.

Opposing coaches go nuts when their precious Wide 9s who "can't be reached" start getting blocked.  I'm not saying they can't solve it.  I'm just saying that in our case, I don't think they did.  Just to be clear, we don't reach or log or whatever it's called.  We just take them on full man.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 10:51:52 AM by Michael »
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #215 on: November 20, 2011, 11:49:14 AM »
Mike,

You know, I could probably be talked into 2 pointing our Tackles.  Any downside you discovered?

Matt

Im beginning to believe in a 2 point stance for the entire OL. Has more pros than cons.
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Offline Jburk

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #216 on: November 20, 2011, 03:38:34 PM »
Matt

Im beginning to believe in a 2 point stance for the entire OL. Has more pros than cons.

I messed around with this at the end of this past year, and liked what I saw. Seemed to me that they were faster out of their stance, and since they were more comfortable in it they loved it.

Was met with a TON of resistance from other coaches though; LOL...I guess to an old school, I formation "pound it up the middle with the fullback" guy, that might be heresy.  :D

Looked good though, and If I run spread again we'll be two point stances all the time.
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #217 on: November 20, 2011, 04:07:12 PM »
the two pages attached are a beginning....their is no difference in my mind between pass and run game when it comes to these calls......press on the pic it should show up fine....I will put some more either tomorrow or tuesday.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #218 on: November 20, 2011, 06:09:46 PM »
I messed around with this at the end of this past year, and liked what I saw. Seemed to me that they were faster out of their stance, and since they were more comfortable in it they loved it.

Was met with a TON of resistance from other coaches though; LOL...I guess to an old school, I formation "pound it up the middle with the fullback" guy, that might be heresy.  :D

Looked good though, and If I run spread again we'll be two point stances all the time.

Dave Potter runs the DW...very well...2 point stances.

Our Super Smurfs did it for the first time this season. All that time wasted teaching a good three point stance to rookies now went to blocking fundementals. They still played too high...but so did the DL...8 year olds. So...get them playing in a good run demeanor would be the next step.

I started going 100% 2 point with the OT's with the older kids years ago.
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Offline Roden10

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #219 on: November 20, 2011, 11:19:39 PM »
We went with a 2 point stance this year on offense and defense. Like Mike said the extra time from not teaching that went to blocking and tackling fundimentals.

I tried having the staggered stance on offense as described by DP. But some kids couldn't keep their body square with one foot back. They would just open a big hole. So those kids I made keep their feet even and that worked fine.

The only problem I had was that we run the single wing and on some snaps to the Blocking Back the ball would hit the staggered foot of the Guard. We had to work on that a little.
Tim


If your feet aren't moving, you're not blocking!

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #220 on: November 21, 2011, 06:08:15 AM »
We went with a 2 point stance this year on offense and defense. Like Mike said the extra time from not teaching that went to blocking and tackling fundimentals.

I tried having the staggered stance on offense as described by DP. But some kids couldn't keep their body square with one foot back. They would just open a big hole. So those kids I made keep their feet even and that worked fine.

The only problem I had was that we run the single wing and on some snaps to the Blocking Back the ball would hit the staggered foot of the Guard. We had to work on that a little.
staggered feet help pass pro, but hurt the run game....because cod become more difficult....one of those amped up suggestions that mahonz cant seem to grasp.....
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 07:24:47 AM by zoezachary »
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #221 on: November 21, 2011, 11:57:31 AM »
staggered feet help pass pro, but hurt the run game....because cod become more difficult....one of those amped up suggestions that mahonz cant seem to grasp.....

Z

I mastered the staggered 2 point stance for the OTs' for the run game years ago when you were still in diapers.



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Re: Monuments
« Reply #222 on: November 21, 2011, 12:01:38 PM »
I don't like them in 2 point stances full time, I actually don't use them at all, I feel they get off the line, faster, and much lower, from a 3 point stance. 

With zone I cant see the OL getting good hand placement on a DL that is charging low and hard, the punch is so important, in a zone scheme. 

It's also in my opinion easier to pass block from a 3 than to run block from a 2. 
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #223 on: November 21, 2011, 12:12:25 PM »
I don't like them in 2 point stances full time, I actually don't use them at all, I feel they get off the line, faster, and much lower, from a 3 point stance. 

With zone I cant see the OL getting good hand placement on a DL that is charging low and hard, the punch is so important, in a zone scheme. 

It's also in my opinion easier to pass block from a 3 than to run block from a 2.
two point can be done without any adjustment from a 3pt....just pick the hand up.
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #224 on: November 21, 2011, 12:13:50 PM »
Z

I mastered the staggered 2 point stance for the OTs' for the run game years ago when you were still in diapers.
yes......we know you invented it all...... ::)
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