Author Topic: Monuments  (Read 38854 times)

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Offline seeindouble

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2011, 01:34:26 PM »
you cant read linebackers.....in my picture, your bounce is outleverage and you cut back into the very player you say you are reading.

Good point, I would prefer IZ to the strongside of that alignment with everything being equal. But off-tackle is there also if you run Power...

Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2011, 01:38:06 PM »
you trying to make it a sweep, which it isnt, it off tackle play.
A 7 tech sees the ot releasing to him, whats he going to do? he will grab the te and hold his water. the tackle has to overtake he cant just release to the second level. the 3 tech see the guard reach? he will stay in the b gap. c and b gaps are covered. the te and t and guard are not getting to the second level. the center is covered with mike stacked. the center cant just release to the mike...as he has to allow time for the bsg to make up ground. and in this defense the nose has the backside A gap. the center will get grabbed. I have two free bakers. The strong safety has d gap but will force the play to cut back into  the 7 tech........the linebackers frontside A gap (the 40 sam whom their is no blocker) and backside b( the stacked mike. the minute your back opens to the butt of the te, you are in trouble....

Z

If it bounces to the perimeter how would reading the DL change the scenario you describe? The back either presses his monument, cuts back against the flow or bounces depending on the WHAT IFS.

If it turns into a perimeter play....so what.

If the play is hosed completely....run to the twins side....or trips...or trap...or pass. Not everything is going to work all of the time. I will at least predicate the LB'r read off formation so that its more clear for the young RB. The first level is a mess…the second level is not is my theory.

Its what I like about this style of play for youths….just because the Masters say do this or don’t do that doesn’t make them right. It’s a system that allows some latitude and some experimentation. The first week I started teaching zone I sent bucket stepping right into the shredder. I could see right away this was not a good idea for kids with no hair in their armpits.  ;)

Latitude.   

I also changed the defensive techniques so that smoke would stop coming out of their ears once I went past a 5 tech. A 7 for my kids is outside the TE, a 5 is inside the TE….an 8 or 9 only applies to a tight WB. Once they get to HS they can learn it that other way.  :)   


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Re: Monuments
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2011, 01:48:36 PM »
Z

If it bounces to the perimeter how would reading the DL change the scenario you describe? The back either presses his monument, cuts back against the flow or bounces depending on the WHAT IFS.

If it turns into a perimeter play....so what.

If the play is hosed completely....run to the twins side....or trips...or trap...or pass. Not everything is going to work all of the time. I will at least predicate the LB'r read off formation so that its more clear for the young RB. The first level is a mess…the second level is not is my theory.

Its what I like about this style of play for youths….just because the Masters say do this or don’t do that doesn’t make them right. It’s a system that allows some latitude and some experimentation. The first week I started teaching zone I sent bucket stepping right into the shredder. I could see right away this was not a good idea for kids with no hair in their armpits.  ;)

Latitude.   

I also changed the defensive techniques so that smoke would stop coming out of their ears once I went past a 5 tech. A 7 for my kids is outside the TE, a 5 is inside the TE….an 8 or 9 only applies to a tight WB. Once they get to HS they can learn it that other way.  :)
you cant read linebackers.....which I proved.
if you try to reach a 7 tech. with a tackle and the 7 tech is taught well...your outside zone play is dead.  the bucket step by the te allows the ot to make up ground. every defender to the strongsid has leverage on every block the oz needs. If you take the time their is reasons for what they do...its not  intelligentsia........its common sense.
read the last down linemen or the defensive and read is much cleaner. you are still screwed but much better read. the idea is to run away from the defense and where your blocker have leverage, not where  your blockers are completely outleveraged.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 01:54:08 PM by zoezachary »
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2011, 01:49:46 PM »
Good point, I would prefer IZ to the strongside of that alignment with everything being equal. But off-tackle is there also if you run Power...
better off running weak and some type of iso.......
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Offline seeindouble

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2011, 01:59:14 PM »
better off running weak and some type of iso.......

Nah, Power's there, I'd just treat the strongside like a 4-4.
Double the 3 tech to the Mike,
have the TE bluff the 7 and arc to the SS,
kick-out the 7 with the WSG,
and wrap an H-Back or FB to the Sam.

Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2011, 02:08:15 PM »
you cant read linebackers.....which I proved.
if you try to reach a 7 tech. with a tackle and the 7 tech is taught well...your outside zone play is dead.  the bucket step by the te allows the ot to make up ground. every defender to the strongsid has leverage on every block the oz needs. If you take the time their is reasons for what they do...its not  intelligentsia........its common sense.
read the last down linemen or the defensive and read is much cleaner. you are still screwed but much better read. the idea is to run away from the defense and where your blocker have leverage, not where  your blockers are completely outleveraged.

Sam doesnt dissappear....meaning the TE OT OG and C are occupied and attempting to gain outside leverage as you describe....so the read is to bounce. Same end result if you have the back reading hats down the DL.

I'll stick with one read. You stick with multiple reads.  ;) Same thing...just different.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2011, 02:16:02 PM »
Nah, Power's there, I'd just treat the strongside like a 4-4.
Double the 3 tech to the Mike,
have the TE bluff the 7 and arc to the SS,
kick-out the 7 with the WSG,
and wrap an H-Back or FB to the Sam.

SD

Do you find power to be an efficient compliment to zone?

I basically try to figure out the best schemes to run that can hit everywhere but am always concerned with practice time. Power seems expensive.

I typically go wedge, trap zone and speed and haven’t run any power in quite some time. I really like the zone because it’s a quick marriage to slide protection. 

Thoughts?
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2011, 04:21:40 PM »
Sam doesnt dissappear....meaning the TE OT OG and C are occupied and attempting to gain outside leverage as you describe....so the read is to bounce. Same end result if you have the back reading hats down the DL.

I'll stick with one read. You stick with multiple reads.  ;) Same thing...just different.
but the defense forces the the "no cut" cut.....back into the  sam...the play you said you reading.
 if the sam backer is on los over outside the tightend and that  kicks him out? or the tightend does it, it puts the sam in a bind......
so yes its a good compliment.
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2011, 04:36:04 PM »
Nah, Power's there, I'd just treat the strongside like a 4-4.
Double the 3 tech to the Mike,
have the TE bluff the 7 and arc to the SS,
kick-out the 7 with the WSG,
and wrap an H-Back or FB to the Sam.
leaves plenty of to create a pile in the backfield with my seven, forcing your back east-west or into the sam in the a gap.
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Offline seeindouble

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2011, 04:58:07 PM »
  or into the sam in the a gap.

Well the Sam is doing the H-Back's or FB's job for Him.
If the Sam is going to jump into the A gap, then that only leaves the FS for the H-Back or FB to block.
All of the above is predicated on everything else being equal of course...

Offline coachmsl

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2011, 07:39:11 PM »
Z

Looks like against this reduced front, OZ would be the appropriate call. 

However, if IZ is the call, my back would most likely be cutting this play back.  Backside note = Center and BS Guard take Nose and Mike. BS tackle up to will, boot controls DE.

Mike,

I have heard a lot of coaches talk about the full back for IZ.  Most I heard say that he should be blocking backside.   We dont run IZ out of the I.  So i really cant comment on it with an experience base.  We use an H.

Matt
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Offline dbsesq

Re: Monuments
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2011, 08:15:43 PM »
This is a great conversation on the philosophy of the read.  There are a lot of things to think about and how to teach the monuments and the relation to the blocking.  The more i read the more i am fascinated with OZ and IZ and learning the difference.  Along way to go but you guys are awesome!

Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2011, 09:09:47 PM »
Z

Looks like against this reduced front, OZ would be the appropriate call. 

However, if IZ is the call, my back would most likely be cutting this play back.  Backside note = Center and BS Guard take Nose and Mike. BS tackle up to will, boot controls DE.

Mike,

I have heard a lot of coaches talk about the full back for IZ.  Most I heard say that he should be blocking backside.   We dont run IZ out of the I.  So i really cant comment on it with an experience base.  We use an H.

Matt

Matt

I have only run IZ one season...and we ran IZ exclusively out of spread i. The FB had a read. If the back side edge defender was rather wide he would lead....if the edge defender was rather skinny he would would indeed go backside.

As a side note and Bill Mountjoy figured things out for me I think....leading the play was not that great as the FB thnds to clog the zone. Fortunately the edge defenders were skinny more times than they were not but its something I too need more experience with.
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Offline coachmsl

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2011, 09:37:16 PM »
We taught what Bill and Kevin Burns teach.  We read the DT on IZ, and DE on OZ.  Not having read a lb, my thoughts are just that.  But, I cant get my head around it.  Simple because If you back is looking at backers, he might miss that D-Lineman.  With slanting DL, Zone works pretty good if you read is close and quick.  Get possitive yards.

Ive heard the bounce talk for IZ.  We didnt want our backs doing this.  Heres why.  OZ is going to set up IZ or vice versa.  Its a "take what they give you" decision first.  Take advantage of pursuit second.  I want our rb to help our lineman.  If IZ and OZ are hitting the same place, we lose the big hitter - the cutback. 

So we have 1 read for each play.

OZ is the DE.  We want to run to the edge, but if we cant reach the DE, cut up the C gap.
IZ is the DT.  We want to cram the B gap, but if its not there we cut back behind to the A, or backside a gap, b gap, even c gap occasionally.

Because the initial movements for the combos / base blocks are virtually the same for IZ and OZ; defenders have a difficult time with recognition.  Think of what a slip screen does to an agressive front.   

 
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2011, 05:40:14 AM »
Z

Looks like against this reduced front, OZ would be the appropriate call. 

However, if IZ is the call, my back would most likely be cutting this play back.  Backside note = Center and BS Guard take Nose and Mike. BS tackle up to will, boot controls DE.

Mike,

I have heard a lot of coaches talk about the full back for IZ.  Most I heard say that he should be blocking backside.   We dont run IZ out of the I.  So i really cant comment on it with an experience base.  We use an H.

Matt
i re read the article watch the video and i made a mistake...i got that defense from mcnally. but he used the example against the one back set.....which their are truly not enough people.....the play is fine if it gets OUTSIDE....if the ss can force the cutback I win....if doesnt, their is a lot of grass......
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