Author Topic: Monuments  (Read 38790 times)

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Offline coachmsl

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2011, 06:56:30 AM »
I have been doing a lot of reading on Zone blocking (IZ and OZ).  One thing mentioned here and in articles by Alex Gibbs in the importance of the running back understanding his monuments.  My understanding, in a very basic sense, is the for OZ the monument is the TE location at the start of the play and for IZ the monument is the tackle at the start of the play.  The read for the RB on OZ is the edge defender first and then the first player inside.  Regardless of the read he must press is monument and make the cut upon arrival to the monument.

Here is where i am confused (and a confused coach is a bad thing  ;) ).  My understanding is on OZ the RB is looking to determine if his first read gains the outside edge of the offensive player blocking him if he has he looks to his second read to determine if that defender has also gained the outside edge of the offensive player blocking him. 

So, Scenario 1 - Edge defender has not gained outside leverage - RB takes to the edge
      Scenario 2 - Edge Defender has gained outside leverage but next defender has not - RB cuts inside off of outside offensive Player (OT - OZ weak/TE OZ Strong)
      Scenario 3  - Both Defenders have gained outside Leverage - RB will cut inside off of second Offensive player (OG -OZ Weak/OT OZ strong).

Am I heading in the right direction of OZ?

For IZ i am clueless so far.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  I am going to need to teach this to 12/13 year olds next year.

Dave

We did OZ very similar to what you describe Dave. We did not stress the second read.  Probably would have helped.  Gibbs teaches it I know.  Next year we might do that.

IZ was a tad tighter.  AP = Outside foot of the guard.  Path straight towards the B gap.  We read the first man past the center.  If he could cram the b gap and get some yards there, then do it.  If not, cut it back.

msl
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 07:01:13 AM by coachmsl »
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Offline seeindouble

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2011, 07:34:05 AM »
Do ya'll teach your RBs to make the read by his 3rd step ala Gibbs, or do you even consider that when coaching RBs?

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2011, 08:08:39 AM »
Do ya'll teach your RBs to make the read by his 3rd step ala Gibbs, or do you even consider that when coaching RBs?
do you know why gibbs does that? here is hint: it ties in with the Oline.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2011, 08:19:33 AM »
Why the knee not the foot.

If a guy is trying to turn us, and we want to step across to keep driving him vertically, I think if we emphasize stepping with the foot, it's easy to end up with the kid kicking the foot out, and not bringing the hips (and therefore the body) across.

When we emphasize kicking the knee out and over, the foot follows, but it stays directly below the knee, rather than getting ahead of the knee, and the hips (and therefore the body) come across, too.

So instead of blocking with the feet, and almost looking as if we want to trip the guy, we end up blocking with the thigh and hips, which means our upper body is where it needs to be, too.

You don't really block with your feet.  You use the feet to put the body in the right position to block.  If you emphasize the foot, it's easy to get the former.  If you emphasize the knee, I think you have a better chance of getting the latter.
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Offline dbsesq

Re: Monuments
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2011, 09:02:36 AM »
Matt

Im all ears on this counting thing. Your success this season says it all.  8)

CoachMSL, thanks for the reply to my original post.  I too am all ears on the counting method.  I have been reading Mountjoy's posts and writings.  When i draw up the various defenses i keep finding #4 unblocked but am assuming (dangerous) that # 4 is taken care of with a FB or other lead. 

Mountjoy and others seem to stress the counting aids in the identification of who to block.  My question then is, in 53 for instance, if 0 is the NG the MLB would be #1 and is the OG's player.    If the DT is aligned in 3 tech and is #2 the OG and the OT would combo #3 and the OG would slide the OT off the block and the OT would then climb and take the MLB if the MLB scrapped over but if MLB came inside the OG would come off his block and take the MLB while the OT stayed on the OT.  So is it like some man coverage where the count changes on the movement of the players?

Also, in the above scenario, if SLB was aligned inside the TE he would #3 and the TE would climb to him leaving the DE #4 to a lead back (numbers take precedence of covered/uncovered rules). 

As you can see i am most likely confused on the numbers thing in combination with the covered uncovered rules.  I know Mountjoy would tell me that i am over complicating it but that may be because i don't understand it.  Any guidance you can give. 

Formation wise we will either be in Ace or using a H back who will be offset either strong or weak and Ace with trips.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 09:19:54 AM by dbsesq »

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2011, 09:30:09 AM »
CoachMSL, thanks for the reply to my original post.  I too am all ears on the counting method.  I have been reading Mountjoy's posts and writings.  When i draw up the various defenses i keep finding #4 unblocked but am assuming (dangerous) that # 4 is taken care of with a FB or other lead. 

Mountjoy and others seem to stress the counting aids in the identification of who to block.  My question then is, in 53 for instance, if 0 is the NG the MLB would be #1 and is the OG's player.    If the DT is aligned in 3 tech and is #2 the OG and the OT would combo and the OG would slide the OT off the block and the OT would then climb and take the MLB if the MLB scrapped over but if MLB came inside the OG would come off his block and take the MLB while the OT stayed on the OT.  So is it like pattern reading where the count changes on the movement of the players?

Also, in the above scenario, if SLB was aligned inside the TE he would #3 and the TE would climb to him leaving the DE #4 to a lead back (numbers take precedence of covered/uncovered rules). 

As you can see i am most likely confused on the numbers thing in combination with the covered uncovered rules.  I know Mountjoy would tell me that i am over complicating it but that may be because i don't understand it.  Any guidance you can give. 

Formation wise we will either be in Ace or using a H back who will be offset either strong or weak and Ace with trips.
its called 2 and 3 man zones. in the 5-3 the backside guard, oc, psg would all be in combination blocking, blocking zero, one, and two.... the tackle would have number 3 or 4 pending who the te has....
but it all starts with understanding the numbers game....
in your ex. the center and the frontside guard  have  zero, one, and two.....basis math says that is 3 on 2... so you have to add a 3rd....you do that by having a call that puts 3 blockers on 3 defenders.
and here is a dirty little secret! those "rules" apply to the pass pro.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 09:31:59 AM by zoezachary »
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Offline dbsesq

Re: Monuments
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2011, 10:13:57 AM »
ZZ,

So BSG and C combo the 0, PSG and PST take #2.  C combos to #1 and PST combos to #3?

 I don't think the concept is difficult to understand but i am having trouble finding a clear write up of it.  I have the Gibbs OZ and IZ on order so i don't know if that will clear it up or not.  If i can understand i think i can teach it to the kids.  I like the idea of having the same rules apply to pass protection as that makes teaching a whole lot easier and more productive. 

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2011, 01:50:28 PM »
ZZ,

So BSG and C combo the 0, PSG and PST take #2.  C combos to #1 and PST combos to #3?

 I don't think the concept is difficult to understand but i am having trouble finding a clear write up of it.  I have the Gibbs OZ and IZ on order so i don't know if that will clear it up or not.  If i can understand i think i can teach it to the kids.  I like the idea of having the same rules apply to pass protection as that makes teaching a whole lot easier and more productive.
dont assign them defenders....assign them gaps. the minute you assign them players? they chase....and all of a suddenly the combination falls apart. create a call that bsg is working  with the center, center working with psg....if the 3 tech is tigh, and he pinches hard inside? the fsg still has playside B gap....and probably mike.....but again you cant say you have mike....

make your defensive recognition easier.....
ODD defense- the defense has 3 or 5 down line men....center and both tackles covered by a down linemen. Both guards have linebackers over them.
EVEN- the defense 2-4-6 down linemen.  Both guards and both tackles are covered by down linemen. the center is covered by a linebacker.
over

Now you are not teaching 33 stack, 46, 54, 53
now what happens when you 5 down linemen and the nose moves closer to the guard than the center? you now have an overload....zero is still zero....but he is now over the guard.......and the center is uncovered.
 then over and under defenses cause problems....because you have character traits of both...so you need to create call that put 2, 3 or even 4 players  player working together seal gaps....protect each other.....and essentially for those two,3,4 players.
the over defense at its base  puts the mike over the weak guard. either the center as to work with the backside guard to account for OR the backside tackle and backside guard have to account for him..... you have to decide where you want to make your money. and you will leave somebody 1 on 1 and you will need to teach some different footwork to different combinations...
 if something I said doesnt make sense....just ask.....
also let me add this is also applicable to pass pro.....
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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2011, 03:24:04 PM »
"You don't really block with your feet."
 
Seriously?

Movement of the feet is the most important aspect of blocking. You do indeed block with your feet!  You contradict yourself by continuing "You use the feet to put the body in the right position to block"  BINGO!!

 
Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  :)

Offline Michael

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2011, 03:27:42 PM »
Shad, I'll try to cut down on the nuance for you from now on.
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Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2011, 04:15:24 PM »
Nuance away!!

 8)
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2011, 04:16:45 PM »
for sake of this conversation lets he is over the guard. That makes the mlb or mike zero. the defensive tackle is olb is two, de is 3.
1.who has zero in this alignment?

do another drawing either on paper or on here, move zero over the outside shade of the guard But dont keep mike labeled zero. then tell me what you see on paper. and it does matter whether its weak or strong.

Z

I'll draft up a few scenarios against a few different defenses tonight so we can cover some of the confusions that may exist. Not that Im not one of the confused  ;)
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Re: Monuments
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2011, 04:23:07 PM »
Z

I'll draft up a few scenarios against a few different defenses tonight so we can cover some of the confusions that may exist. Not that Im not one of the confused  ;)
COVER both guard and tackle with down linemen....cover the center with mlb....
then move the mlb over the guard.....
Its not that difficult.....especially when I have already explained it.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2011, 04:45:02 PM »
COVER both guard and tackle with down linemen....cover the center with mlb....
then move the mlb over the guard.....
Its not that difficult.....especially when I have already explained it.

It is when you go odd....46....33 stack... or cover zero....etc etc etc.

Its why I use certain formations....so I can hope to avoid the avoidable.

I get your 40 front thing....no problem. Just want to expand the discussion while we are at it. Should vet out some good stuff.

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Re: Monuments
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2011, 04:47:51 PM »
It is when you go odd....46....33 stack... or cover zero....etc etc etc.

Its why I use certain formations....so I can hope to avoid the avoidable.

I get your 40 front thing....no problem. Just want to expand the discussion while we are at it. Should vet out some good stuff.
then you dont understand what I have written. cover zero has nothing to do with count system....
its odd even and bear...it starts their. if you are a spread or an I or wing t, or double tight dw, it doesnt matter. the identification process is still the same. you are adding stuff that isnt necessary.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 05:27:28 PM by zoezachary »
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