Author Topic: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL  (Read 9278 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bob Goodman

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9519
  • Total likes: 356
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2012, 11:17:23 PM »
Our priority rule is to NOT allow penetration. We do not want the defense to penetrate, period. So, at LOS, we’re using right shoulder. We **should** be getting a big down blocking push, causing a pileup, so we’re  not worried about DLMN coming over the top. That has never been an issue.
how do you produce that push?  If I read you right, your first step is with your inside foot, practically flat to the line of scrimmage (15 degrees).  Meanwhile I don't know how far you recess your OL.  Your 2nd step is then with your outside foot, and it wouldn't make sense for that step to be anything other than along the same nearly flat path.  Let's say your outside shoulder hits as you plant that outside foot.  You're not going to be taking 2 steps in a row with the outside foot, so the only direction of push with that shoulder I could see you getting at that point is upward if you loaded on that foot as you landed.

The angle you're describing is similar to the one I'd have going into a reach or reach-to-crab.  You say it's more severe than severe angle, so it's got to be practically flat.  At that angle, your outside shoulder might just be brushing the front of the opponent, and that's only if he's coming hard enough to meet you.  Why doesn't he just let you take up that space and play like a LB to fill the hole?

The next adjacent OL to the outside is either participating in a double team on someone over him or angle blocking another opponent.  So where is the push and pileup coming from?  If he's double teaming and getting a good push, the aforementioned DL avoiding the inside OL's sideways-moving body would seem to have space immediately behind the double teamers.  If the outside OL is angle blocking using the same technique, how is anybody moved away from the hole?

So if what you're describing works, then you must not be describing it right.  Maybe you're exaggerating how flat they step, how low the angle is, or maybe something else.  I've seen that before with coaches on boards like this.  Once at Huey's somebody gave a description that was geometrically impossible; the blocker would wiff, that was clear, but it wasn't clear to me which leg of the triangle was described wrong.  Trying to get him to clarify, he kept insisting the steps were exactly as he wrote them.  Apparently I upset one or more other people there by trying to find out what the right technique was.  Apparently the problem was that other people understood "6 inch step" didn't literally mean a 6 inch step -- even though the guy kept insisting that was the literal truth -- but was commonly stated that way, exaggerating how short it was so players wouldn't step too far.  Could that be the case here?  You wrote that if you say 30 degrees, the players turn that into 45; so maybe you don't really mean 15 degrees.

Offline JB

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1560
  • Total likes: 10
  • "Hang Tough! Never, ever, give up"-Maj. D. Winters
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Other
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2012, 08:08:39 AM »
I didn't mean on the back side, I meant the play side.  That's where the discussion was up to this point, but you seem to have switched to back side.  Sure, on the side away from the play, if that guard is being pulled, there I have an antipenetration block -- scoop, crab, or shoeshine as necessary.  There's no need to get a push there, and I don't care about anything but penetration.

I just think that on the play side on a single wing off tackle play, an antipenetration block is too conservative.  If the play is timed right, a defender penetrating the 2nd position away from the hole will wind up behind the runner.
Bob...NOT if you are shoulder blocking. Way too high and where is your shoulder surface going?!?
If I'm aiming my chin at the defender's ear hole, I'm getting my outside shoulder in his armpit.  Before I read DC's, I had the inside shoulder there, and the inside arm across his front, but that might look too close to tackling him.Then we're doing the same thing.

My mistake.

I was referring to the "SG". FYI, we call the "SG" the "QG" in our offense (and the QG the "QT")...so...I try to use standard terms, but sometimes slip back into using our terminology.

The IT should fill for the pulling SG. He should block on a zero degree angle. We have learned this over the years, painstakingly, with a number of ITs. This is based from on-the-grass experience, over several years.

This is my advice, and I'm sticking with it!
"The big lesson in life, baby, is to never be scared of anyone or anything." Frank Sinatra

Offline JB

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1560
  • Total likes: 10
  • "Hang Tough! Never, ever, give up"-Maj. D. Winters
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Other
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2012, 08:50:12 AM »
how do you produce that push?

Bob…do you also have a J.D.?

We have three OLMN blocking down, the pulling SG, and a WB…they produce a “push”.


Quote
If I read you right, your first step is with your inside foot, practically flat to the line of scrimmage (15 degrees).

Bob…this is real life. We’re dealing with humans. Its never the same. We coach a 15 degree step. Its likely that they may end up somewhere greater than that…or could go less than that…they are not robots (nor are the opponents). We coach a 15 degree step to ensure that we get a hard angle. We also teach them to keep head in front. They will self adjust.


Quote
Meanwhile I don't know how far you recess your OL.

We have earhole to waistband of center.

Quote
Your 2nd step is then with your outside foot, and it wouldn't make sense for that step to be anything other than along the same nearly flat path.

The only OLMN on a “FLAT PATH” is the IT. He is the ONLY ONE.


Quote
Let's say your outside shoulder hits as you plant that outside foot.  You're not going to be taking 2 steps in a row with the outside foot, so the only direction of push with that shoulder I could see you getting at that point is upward if you loaded on that foot as you landed.

Bob…you’re now getting into shoulder blocking mechanics…an entirely different discussion.

The best teacher, IMHO, is Herman. Get his tapes.

I should never be blocking the opponent up by his armpit, btw.


Quote
The angle you're describing is similar to the one I'd have going into a reach or reach-to-crab.  You say it's more severe than severe angle, so it's got to be practically flat.

Reach blocking footwork is entirely different. There’s a treatise that culd be written about that.

But, I would NEVER be using an angle on a REACH block, Bob. That involves lateral footwork.

(BTW…for DC…this is why I really have issues with proponents of zone blocking at youth level. Zone involves A LOT of REACH BLOCKING…which I consider to be one of toughest blocks to execute. Why put myself in a position where I frequently rely on a f’in tough ass block?!? Nuts. JUST AN ASIDE.)



 
Quote
At that angle, your outside shoulder might just be brushing the front of the opponent, and that's only if he's coming hard enough to meet you.  Why doesn't he just let you take up that space and play like a LB to fill the hole?
Bob…the OLMN plays with head up. He knows who his man is…perhaps this is a disconnect between youth and HS. Our guys don’t just run blindly past their man.


Quote
The next adjacent OL to the outside is either participating in a double team on someone over him or angle blocking another opponent.  So where is the push and pileup coming from?
 

Just from what you just described.


Quote
If he's double teaming and getting a good push, the aforementioned DL avoiding the inside OL's sideways-moving body would seem to have space immediately behind the double teamers.  If the outside OL is angle blocking using the same technique, how is anybody moved away from the hole?

Wow…I do not have all day…may need to return tonight…lol

There’s many ways of teaching double teams. If running G-O-D, there’s a hip-to-hip with inside foot technique that you would use. The outside man is always the “turn man”.

The GDB or SAB, or some combo of two, folks are not looking for double teams b/c there’s no “on” block. But they end up happening. It’s the nature of how things work out. The outside man still is turn man.

We do have double team calls for select plays, that is a whole different can of worms and beyond  DCUBSW. Like…much of this discussion. ☺


Quote
So if what you're describing works, then you must not be describing it right.  Maybe you're exaggerating how flat they step, how low the angle is, or maybe something else.

I have answered above. I am not EXAGGERATING or LYING, Bob. This is how we coach it. We’re talking real life, on-the-grass experience. I have coached Wing T and SW since the mid 1990s.

Bob…its easy for folks to write up X’s and O’s and claim things on a board. Its different in how things happen in real life.

On the DCWT section, Lacy posted some footage, you could look at just about every player and find something wrong on each play. But Bob…that’s true of ALL of us!!! We design the perfect, but get something less. Its commendable that Lacy posted it…it was great footage to learn from.

I have sat through more Saturday morning film sessions with our HC and team than I care to remember. Going over film from previous night’s game. It is painful when you go through it! What looked like a fantastic play the night before (e.g., a 60 yd TD run)…could be filled with mistakes. Sometimes successful plays are ugly as hell.

We coach a 15 degree step, yes, we do. We expect something a bit greater. But, Bob, we COULD get something less.

We also “overcoach” the first step. We often drill them to bring it straight up and down. No 6” step. Guess what, we end with a first step closer to a 6” inch step than telling them. We’re not the only ones doing this, Bob.
"The big lesson in life, baby, is to never be scared of anyone or anything." Frank Sinatra

Offline Yankee Charlie

  • Gold
  • Posts: 2849
  • Total likes: 20
  • If you don't know me by now...
  • Coaching: 6 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Multiple
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2012, 09:09:17 AM »
FWIW, I have always coached the down block to be head in front.  We found that most of our missed blocks were when the OLMN failed to get his head in front.  Having your head in front places more weight (force) countering the force of the defenders forward movement. 

Everything JB has typed makes sense to me and has played out on grass.
"A boy comes to me with a spark of interest and it becomes a flame. I feed the flame and it becomes fire, I feed the fire and it becomes a roaring blaze" - Cus D'Amato, 1908-1985

Offline Bob Goodman

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9519
  • Total likes: 356
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2012, 01:50:42 PM »
Bob…do you also have a J.D.?
Yeah: juvenile delinquent.
Quote
I have answered above. I am not EXAGGERATING or LYING, Bob. This is how we coach it. We’re talking real life, on-the-grass experience. I have coached Wing T and SW since the mid 1990s.

Bob…its easy for folks to write up X’s and O’s and claim things on a board. Its different in how things happen in real life.
This may be one of those things that I have to be there to understand.  Unfortunately every club I've assisted with, the blocking has been so unsophisticated that the only chance I've had to work on mechanics is where I'm teaching them, not getting anything from them.  When any HC has watched me coach blocking, they've never stepped in and said anything I was teaching was wrong, nor called me aside afterward to say anything like that, and I never saw them work on blocking form to the degree I did.  Meanwhile, when it comes to videos, I just haven't seen anything that's shown me if you do it this way, this happens, and if you do it that way, that happens, in anything like realistic situations.
Quote
We also “overcoach” the first step. We often drill them to bring it straight up and down. No 6” step. Guess what, we end with a first step closer to a 6” inch step than telling them. We’re not the only ones doing this, Bob.
The technique I was referring to from that other discussion was an entirely different one.  I'm just using it as an example of where what the coach said wasn't what he meant.  If you're interested in the details I can give them, but they have nothing to do with the down blocking being discussed here.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 03:58:25 PM by Bob Goodman »

Offline JB

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1560
  • Total likes: 10
  • "Hang Tough! Never, ever, give up"-Maj. D. Winters
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Other
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2012, 03:47:44 PM »
Bob...here’s some thoughts for you…take 'em or leave 'em.  ;)

When I was first starting out, we ran Wing T and I knew next to nothing—especially about the o-line.  :(

One of the things that I did was organize a football camp for our youth organization. It was two Sunday evenings, a couple of hours each night, I believe.

I went out and recruited several local HS coaches, I targeted the schools we fed into and, selfishly, other coaches that taught the Wing T. I did not get all of the coaches I wanted, but enough. And, I got a really good Wing T coach to attend. 

The really good Wing T coach, who had won a state championship, and knew his stuff, also worked harder and helped more than any other coach that we invited. He did everything we asked and more. That was where I got lucky. ;)

Once I got to know him, he gave me carte blanche to come and learn/work  with them and bring that back to our program. No strings attached. (I think he appreciated that our camp was well attended, organized, and luckily, had some pretty good local coaches working it.). BTW…this was occurring before we had all of these wonderful Internet resources.

Anyways, the contact with the Wing T coach helped immensely. That was my real entrance into the legit football coaching world…I was now able to learn from coaches other than those in our program. Our program largely consisted of coaches whose experience base typically consisted of a mix of their youth and/or HS football careers and a heavy dose NFL viewing. Those guys were not the ones to be learning from.
 
So…for your situation, my advice is to go seek out quality local HS (or youth) coaches and find out if you can observe/volunteer at their practices. Be selective—there are as many crappy HS coaches as there are at the youth level. Go to the ones that are successful and incorporate what you’re looking for in your program. In addition, set up one-on-ones (did that a bunch) with local coaches and try and arrange a clinic for your coaches that they’d conduct (we did a bunch of those too). Even better, try and attend a practice or two at a summer camp for a local football team (assuming you’ve gotten to know the coach and he’s ok with it). Or, seek out Wing T camps (or whatever applies to your offense) at colleges within your region this summer…go watch a practice or two…its amazing what you’ll learn.

There is nothing like OBSERVING how its done. Its one thing to see something drawn up on a sheet of paper and another to sit in a lecture…but the real learning, imo, starts when you watch the expert work his craft. You get the “aha” moment(s) after watching these guys coach…”so…that’s what they mean” or “I was being too damned precise”…trust me, its much different in person. You need to do that.

Lastly, once you get to know these folks, getting to assist/volunteer with them really makes you learn as you end up “learning by doing”. In addition, if these guys are good, and have been successful, you’ll observe how they communicate and lead their teams. In particular, what to say, what not to say, and when to say it. For me, that is the most important thing.

Off my soap box now…I just get into the SW and Wing T…can’t help it. ☺
"The big lesson in life, baby, is to never be scared of anyone or anything." Frank Sinatra

Offline Bob Goodman

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9519
  • Total likes: 356
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2012, 04:11:08 PM »
The funny thing is, one of those clubs was a wing T organiz'n!  But the only thing their HC did was give me Ted Seay's wing T for youth, and otherwise treat me as a baby sitter for the Pee Wee team they were ostensibly putting together while he concentrated on his adult and teen teams.  However, I don't know whether he was a good coach.  For that, I'll have to check out the HSs around here, or maybe SUNY Maritime, whose HC is very nice.  Fordham U. is closer, but I don't think would let me hang around.

Offline DumCoach

  • Administrator
  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9872
  • Total likes: 702
  • "What me worry? I'm not far enough behind yet!"
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: DC Wing T
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2012, 04:31:09 PM »
JB's suggestions are in.  :)
"Football is for the kids - But let's win anyway."

Offline Bob Goodman

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9519
  • Total likes: 356
  • Coaching: 11 & Under
  • Defense: 5-3
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Assistant
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2012, 09:56:21 AM »
There is one time I wish I'd taught head across the front.  In July 2008 I was teaching different blocking angles to the kids, who had shown up without gear.  One of them had a pronounced sniffle that day.  Unfortunately when it came to showing how to earhole an opponent, he was the one I picked out for the dummy.  Our heads momentarily brushed or got very close.  I caught a cold from that that led to a bronchitis, and I didn't feel right for months!

Offline TigerMOJO

  • Bronze
  • Posts: 519
  • Total likes: 74
  • makeitdowhatitdobaby
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 6-3
  • Offense: DC Wing T
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: Over-Here, Over There vs. GOL
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2012, 12:13:14 PM »
THIS IS BY FAR THE BEST THREAD I'VE READ ON THIS FORUM....so far!!!

Just want to say big thanks for all the things yall have taught me by just reading!!! And I thought I knew how to coach football  :-\...which I've had success in my 8yrs but man my head is filling with knowledge!

did I say....I Love this Forum?? yeah yeah I think I did ;D


Pain is Temporary...Pride is Forever!

A Champion will do what a loser won't do to succeed!!

Who Am I?