Author Topic: DE play in the 5-3  (Read 1678 times)

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Offline Beansko82

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DE play in the 5-3
« on: June 10, 2017, 01:46:53 PM »
Last season we ran the 5-3 with Cover 1/Man Free behind it. We had our ends playing as primary contain.  The C gap was the responsibility of the OLB.  Fortunately for us not too many teams were running off tackle but I don't want to count on that being the case this season. 

My question is what technique do you guys use for your DEs that allows them to close down the C gap, and since I'm assuming that would require a change in coverage scheme what do run on the back end?

Offline MHcoach

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 02:01:34 PM »
B

There are many variations of the 5-3 could you tell us the rest of the alignments so we can get a better picture.

Joe
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 03:49:33 PM by MHcoach »
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Offline Beansko82

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 02:58:23 PM »
Yes sir,

The front is aligned 9-4-0-4-9.  MLB is 00, OLBs 50.  FS is 7-9 yards deep head over C, if we're on the hash slight shade towards field.  CBs off man 5-6 yards deep aligned over #1's outside shoulder. 

We experimented with press later in the season when we faced some better passing teams.  Sometimes we'd move to 3-0-3 with OLBs in 40s in short yardage against teams that liked the inside run. 

Offline MHcoach

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 04:02:04 PM »
B

9-3-0 is what we call an inside 5-3. The 9-4-0 we call stack.

In Stack the end has force not contain. If he gets a down block he closes down & the LB plays over the top. If he gets a reach he strings it & the LB plays inside out.

In the Inside 5-3 now he has contain & the LB c-gap.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
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Offline Beansko82

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2017, 05:08:44 PM »
Thanks Coach that makes a lot of sense.  I see now that we were coaching it incorrectly.
I have a few follow up questions if you don't mind.

Is the DE in the stack reading the offensive EMLOS for the down block correct?

If you were running zone would that change the technique of the DE?

Thanks again for your help.


Offline MHcoach

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2017, 05:48:26 PM »
B

Both the DE & the LB read the TE in Zone or Man. The real question is VS a wing or open set who they read. Vs an open look if you "Bopper Down"(T slides to a 3) then the DE reads the OT's block & the LB #2. Vs a wing the DE plays a 9 off the wing &
 reads the wing's block & the LB reads the TE.

Joe
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Offline Beansko82

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2017, 07:02:28 PM »
Alright Coach I got it now.  Sounds like I can stay in M2M and be sound off tackle.  Thanks again.

Offline mahonz

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2017, 07:14:09 PM »
Have you researched the 46 Defense?
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Offline MHcoach

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2017, 07:55:34 PM »
B

You can definitely play M2M but remember it really was designed for C3.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
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Offline Beansko82

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2017, 09:51:44 PM »
@ mahonz I have a Ryan's 46 playbook but I've never honestly considered running it.

@ MHcoach and in Cover 3 DEs have pass coverage responsibilities in the flats right?

Offline MHcoach

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2017, 10:11:24 PM »
B

In the basic 5-3 no, the LB's play SCARF(Seam Curl and Rally to the Flats). Playing 3-5 then the Spurs play flats. It's an adjustment to the 5-3.

Joe
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Offline mahonz

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2017, 10:39:27 PM »
@ mahonz I have a Ryan's 46 playbook but I've never honestly considered running it.

@ MHcoach and in Cover 3 DEs have pass coverage responsibilities in the flats right?

PM Dumcoach ( Clark ) and ask him for access to the DC46 Section on this Forum. Its an invite only Section that is hidden to the masses.

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Offline defensewins

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2017, 04:43:14 AM »
The MLB has to be in the picture for anything off tackle.  What makes off tackle plays tough vs a 53/Odd Stack type defense is the double team by the TE and the PST to the MLB.  Some MLB's will want to press the void/gap created by the down blocking PSG.  Against a good OL, that is a bad situation.  The playside stacked LB in the 50 technique has to take on his block with his inside shoulder leaving his outside arm free.  The DE that has force is negated by the kickout.  With all that said, if the MLB plays inside of the double team, there is a huge crease for the back.  Playing a 3-0-3 look without any further adjustments, IMO, only plays into the offense's hands, as the TE is able to release to the MLB immediately. 

If I was committed to C1/Man free coverage, I would consider spilling the DE.  However, after you take into consideration the motion adjustments, that seems very coaching intensive...kids don't play fast when they have to think. 

Another thing I would consider would be to put the LB that is responsible for the TE, and align him on the TE at the LOS, and adjust the other two LB's accordingly (40 technique).  And if you're doing that, you may as well play the 3-0-3...and you're playing a 46/bear defense.  Lastly, if I'm comfortable with cover 0, which I definitely would be with a group of nine year olds (and I only say that because I have no idea the schemes/talent you face and can only assume it is heavy run), I'd most likely keep what I was doing with the 5-3 in a 4-0-4 alignment, and simply move the FS alignment over the TE at the LOS. 

I am not suggesting that you should change anything...your defense is your defense that you know how to teach/coach/install.  And you wouldn't need any of those suggestions if your stacked LB's and your MLB work well off of each other.  But, I would want to have one of those options to go to "just in case."  And whatever it is you lay your hat on, remember that each adjustment a defense makes to create a strength in one area, usually creates a potential weakness somewhere else. 

Offline blockandtackle

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Re: DE play in the 5-3
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 04:18:07 PM »
Last season we ran the 5-3 with Cover 1/Man Free behind it. We had our ends playing as primary contain.  The C gap was the responsibility of the OLB.  Fortunately for us not too many teams were running off tackle but I don't want to count on that being the case this season. 

My question is what technique do you guys use for your DEs that allows them to close down the C gap, and since I'm assuming that would require a change in coverage scheme what do run on the back end?

With man coverage, the DEs need to be primary contain.  They can step down with a down block and squeeze down a kick out by attacking the outside shoulder of the blocker with his own outside arm free (inside foot should be up and pads should be underneath his pads and uncurl when he makes contact in order to deliver a blow), but they still need to be contain players to avoid conflicts.

IMO, I'd rather play the DEs in a 5 tech in a base 5-3 and fill C gap and have the OLBs in 40 techs staring down B gap.  That creates tougher angles for the offense off tackle since you have 2 guys outside the T and it also creates some weird angles for inside runs since few youth Cs can handle a NG without help from the PSG.  That means that if they want between the tackles, the T has to block out on the 5 tech and you have 2 LBs free to fill and stuff the inside runs in B gap.

For adjustments, keep the Eagle (weak side in a 3 and a 5) and Double Eagle (DTs in 3s, DEs in 5s or 9s against TEs) in your pocket for when the offense doesn't have a TE weak or is hitting you hard between the tackles.