Author Topic: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -  (Read 728 times)

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Offline JustPlay

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Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« on: July 16, 2018, 06:20:32 PM »
Can we run these concepts with our oline in a 2 point vs a 3 point?
nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste.

Offline MHcoach

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 06:54:34 PM »
JP

I'm sure you could, but my question is why. One of the things I have seen over the years, is coaches who couldn't teach a 3pt use a 2pt. Then they don't teach a 2pt & it doesn't matter.


Coaches like DP who use a 2pt also coach it. They work hard on firing out low & get off from the 2pt. So if you know how to do this then the concepts would work fine from a 2pt. However; if your plan is to use a 2pt because you don't teach a good 3pt, then it is merely an exercise in futulity. I can't tell you how many times I have seen bad 3pt stances at the youth level, & the coach is looking for a different blocking scheme.


Now, if you feel that 2pt is better for your team for specific reasons. Core strength is the usual reason I hear. Then the 2pt will work if you coach it. Personally, I played in a 3pt & have coached it for a long time. IMHO it is just better. I have a few times with specific players used a 2pt successfully, but it was very rare and only for a few specific players.


My advice is give me a call & we can go through the why's of using each.


Joe
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Bill Walsh

Online Michael

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 08:38:47 PM »
If the kid's hand being up rather than down makes it way easier for you to teach, you probably suck at teaching both, rather than just at teaching the 3.

Now if you have other reasons for a 2, great, but a lot of coaches don't.
“If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself.” ― Albert Einstein

Offline Dusty Ol Fart

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 07:55:55 AM »
The "Modern Offense" finds many teams with Guards in a 3 point and Tackles in a 2 point. 

The biggest reason I allow one over the other is, I don't want to waste practice time hollering about cleaning up crappy stances and getting off the ball.  I have a few kids who simply don't have the core strength to get in a proper 3 point stance and/or get off the ball quickly.  There is nothing wrong with a 2 point stance so long as they stay low and engage quickly. 

Regardless of stance, the first thing you need to break them of is "Standing Straight Up" first, then going forward. 

JMHO
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Offline JustPlay

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 09:20:21 AM »
Thanks for the info gents.

Yes its true I suck at coaching but that is why I ask questions

My reasoning was to give my guards an advantage on the pull and to keep the defense off balance with play timing - ie we start out in rhythm cadence - Red 42 - Red 42 - down - set (line gets in 3 point stance) - hike and we go. Then we adjust as the game moves on to go sooner without the hands down to catch them off guard.

So I asked?
nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste.

Online Michael

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 09:46:59 AM »
One of the nastiest things I've seen on here, and I mean that as a compliment, although we somehow never tried it, is to go into a 2-point on DOWN and then a 3-point on SET, and every once in a while go on SET, so that on SET you're launching into the defenders out of a 2 rather than putting a hand on the ground.  I'm sure it's a good way to get the average youth D-Lineman absolutely drilled.
“If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself.” ― Albert Einstein

Offline spidermac

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 09:57:56 AM »
I believe I can teach two, three and four point stances...and I have used all of them, a couple of seasons ago, I saw a HS team with the C in a 4 point, I had a C who was struggling to keep the snap straight, he had body lean (lack of core strength), moved him to a 4 point, and the body lean was gone and his snaps were straight down the middle.

When we ran DW, we were three or four point, it worked well, because we ran the ball 99.947% of the time, and the boys would fly out of their stances and into the Dline.

We moved to our little pistol spread, and originally, we were still in three point...but then we started working pass pro...and they were terrible from a three point...so we stood up the tackles...they were much better in pass pro, and could still run block, the guards were still terrible in pass pro...so we stood everyone up, and now we could run and pass pro, without giving the defense a tell, "They are standing, they must be passing".

Would I rather be in a three or four point all the time? Yes, but circumstances dictate...time, body type, core strength...at least at the youth level...

Now on Defense...different story, our dline is in a three or a four point stance...and as there is not as much content to teach them, we make sure they can get in a good three or four point stance, and get off the ball, attacking with their eyes and their hands...
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 12:35:16 PM »
A hs player has only one excuse for lack of core strength. Youth is different monster entirely.

Doing it just for the pull is not much of a gain imo. Depends partially on your recess. I found with a max recess the pull does not have to gain depth. A simple sab step towards the poa works fine. With tight splits though that can mess up the qb coming out from under center. Anyway, preloading the weight of the puller should be enough to give the guard a little bit of an advantage. We never were real big on teaching one type of pull. We gave the pullers option. They found the style the were most comfortable with and then they stuck with that style. Same goes for foot recess which can also help with pulls. You just have to be consistent whether the player is pulling or not.

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 12:48:12 PM »
I also want to put out out there that the #1 reason a pull fails is that the puller loses sight of his intended man. If that happens he still needs to get to his area. Someone will be there. And he just can't stand at the poa looking for a guy. I think the best way to combat that is to never lose that guy. So I pushed my guys towards a skip pull. That way the puller can have eyes on his poa through the pull. I was at one of Joe's practices and they were doing this nifty little drop step (pull side foot)then cross over pull which I love. Fast and you can see your man.

Offline MHcoach

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 06:45:02 PM »
Rob

I agree, each player needs to do what works best for them. We give our guys a few different ways, & they literally try them until they find the one that works best for them.

The drop step crossover is from UCF last season. Their Oline coach(now at Nebraska) shows his guys several different techniques until they get the one that works the best.

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh

Offline spidermac

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 09:27:53 AM »
We teach either the drop step skip or the throw the hat and hips pull...depends on what they are pulling for...if they are pulling to climb and make vertical lanes we use the drop step skip, if they are pulling to kick, throw the hat and open the hips...
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline JustPlay

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2018, 10:01:44 AM »
We teach either the drop step skip or the throw the hat and hips pull...depends on what they are pulling for...if they are pulling to climb and make vertical lanes we use the drop step skip, if they are pulling to kick, throw the hat and open the hips...

What is a DROP STEP SKIP?
nothing replaces effort. nothing replaces the mind. One with out the other is a waste.

Offline spidermac

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2018, 10:09:00 AM »
What is a DROP STEP SKIP?

They kind of cross over with the back leg and skip kind of laterally.......and then head forward...I'll see if my son can send me a video, he is up at optional work outs again this week :)
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline spidermac

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2018, 04:05:18 PM »
Okay, so he finally sent me a video...unknown Lion Olineman demonstrates for us :)

Full speed and slo mo
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline MHcoach

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Re: Modern Offense - Linemen Stance -
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2018, 06:17:24 PM »
SMac

How far off the ball are your guys?

Joe
"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"
Bill Walsh