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Author Topic: Diamond Formation  (Read 9633 times)

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Offline Coach Perry

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Re: Diamond Formation
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2016, 02:06:22 PM »
Quote from: Bob Goodman on May 08, 2016, 01:47:27 AM
So diamond pistol, then.  (Most of the diamond formations I was thinking of had Q's hands under C.)  Looks like Adam Wesoloski's double wing, except the halfbacks are slightly closer together and the fullback deeper.  I think you could probably get the speed you're looking for hitting the line with everybody a yard closer to it than the minimums you state.

ahhhh... so this is a formation based off the pistol.... so it would be beneficial to look through pistol formation literature to get the overall methodology for the offense... as I found out this formation was used by spread/option teams as a way to introduce a power/deception running scheme and that's what I have been reviewing, however, there is little to nothing from them scheme wise or very informational as to plays, adjustments, etc... Dennis Serra has a book - Diamond Formation youth offense - in which he has the QB under C... I reached out to him to ask if he had a playbook but he said he does not, I found that interesting. I would think being UC would interfere with the read on the DE and make it way to slow to develop.

Leo Hand has a book that is informational as well as has a plethora of plays... most are identical but there are series that can be put together from each formation where they will look exactly the same but hit anywhere with power...
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"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."
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Offline CoachOCD

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Re: Diamond Formation
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2016, 02:51:45 PM »
coach thats my point...if you dont know that the diamond is based at least in part off of pistol...then you are not coaching what you know and know what you coach. I understand that the reply to this will be "thats why Im looking into it now" but you do understand the diamond is just 1 of many formations available to you.

The reason I say this is not a quick hitting O is the amount of time from when ball is snapped vs when the ball crosses the LOS in the hands of a running back...especially at the 11 year old level.

Your going to have a certain percentage of snaps that are off mark, a certian % that are bobbled and yes a HOPEFULLY smaller % that are dropped or launched off target. This % is unknown BUT by your own admitting you dont have a C right now with experience, correct? THIS is why I suggested UTC.

Can you do it? sure! BUT why is the question? IF your looking at the power pistol, OK this will get you some more help than asking for diamond.

You also have a 4 back wing t set from shotgun you may be interested in

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Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Diamond Formation
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2016, 07:39:09 PM »
Quote from: Coach Perry on May 08, 2016, 02:06:22 PM
Dennis Serra has a book - Diamond Formation youth offense - in which he has the QB under C...
I think that's that reeeeaaallly tight backfield diamond that looks like a huddle.
Quote
I would think being UC would interfere with the read on the DE and make it way to slow to develop.
If you look at old literature, formations that would be classified as T these days could also be considered diamond, because the FB was usually deeper, which is why he was called the full back.  But the FB's depth varied a lot between systems.  In DCWT, the FB's only a step deeper than the HB(s), in conformity to how T formation developed; but some of the old books had the FB a yard or more deeper.

What I'm saying is that if you wanted to read the DE, you could model your system on split T, and if you want the FB deeper, so be it.  He'd become the pitch man in a triple or speed option, and the back side HB could just stand back & watch.

Another type of diamond was Okla. U.'s diamond T, which was very much like a power I.  Today it'd be called a diamond I, and a lot of I formation teams use it as one variant.  My team did in 2007.

But if your idea is "triple option look from a pistol formation", then what you should study is the system known as Ski-Gun (after Muskegon HS) or pistolflex.  It won't be exactly what you want, but it'll give you ideas.  I think there was even a pistolflex ass'n or Web site.
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Offline Coach Perry

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Re: Diamond Formation
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2016, 10:17:35 AM »
Quote from: CoachOCD on May 08, 2016, 02:51:45 PM
coach thats my point...if you dont know that the diamond is based at least in part off of pistol...then you are not coaching what you know and know what you coach. I understand that the reply to this will be "thats why Im looking into it now" but you do understand the diamond is just 1 of many formations available to you.

The reason I say this is not a quick hitting O is the amount of time from when ball is snapped vs when the ball crosses the LOS in the hands of a running back...especially at the 11 year old level.

Your going to have a certain percentage of snaps that are off mark, a certian % that are bobbled and yes a HOPEFULLY smaller % that are dropped or launched off target. This % is unknown BUT by your own admitting you dont have a C right now with experience, correct? THIS is why I suggested UTC.

Can you do it? sure! BUT why is the question? IF your looking at the power pistol, OK this will get you some more help than asking for diamond.

You also have a 4 back wing t set from shotgun you may be interested in

I have been looking at Offenses and Defenses for many years now and have tried to find ones that I am passionate about... I have, what I feel, is settled because it was just what needed to be done. How can I coach something I am not excited about, quite honestly, fake it because the kids need to be excited about it.

I understand the "Coach what you know" philosophy and I think another post in the General Discussion summed it up pretty good... what do I know? I know the fundamentals that make any defense, offense or special team work, the requirements of the positions, the tactics and techniques. I know how to get kids excited, aggressive, passionate, willing to protect each other and give it all on that field till the end. Am I a pro, do I know it all, do I try to invent my own stuff.. no, I am not at that level and while I can understand and make minor adjustments I come on forums like this to learn. I ask people far more knowledgeable than myself so that I can "Know what I Coach" which that portion of the philosophy is one I agree with whole heartedly.

I had searched Option, Triple Option, Diamond, etc... and until I typed in "Diamond Pistol" it never showed up. Now that I have been introduced to the appropriate scheme that this is derived from I am overloaded with info... that's a good thing!

The center is an issue I am going to have to rectify... I have centers but one with shotgun snap experience, no. I think we will be okay though... I have a plan.

The Plan - I am going to research and put together a plan of attack for the Diamond... I am going to educate myself with the adjustments, reads, strategy, etc...
Come day one I look for my center, see who can make that snap consistently and under pressure...

The why is tougher question... quite simply because I haven't found the offense that makes me excited... the game I am passionate about now I have to find the offense I am passionate about. Question for you - do you run your offense just because its what you know or because its the one you started out with so that's it, that's what you got?

Here is one you will like - If all the pieces don't fit and it isn't going to be successful... I will go to DW cause I know it ;)
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"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."
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Offline Coach Perry

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Re: Diamond Formation
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2016, 11:02:35 AM »
Quote from: Bob Goodman on May 08, 2016, 07:39:09 PM
I think that's that reeeeaaallly tight backfield diamond that looks like a huddle.

If you look at old literature, formations that would be classified as T these days could also be considered diamond, because the FB was usually deeper, which is why he was called the full back.  But the FB's depth varied a lot between systems.  In DCWT, the FB's only a step deeper than the HB(s), in conformity to how T formation developed; but some of the old books had the FB a yard or more deeper.

What I'm saying is that if you wanted to read the DE, you could model your system on split T, and if you want the FB deeper, so be it.  He'd become the pitch man in a triple or speed option, and the back side HB could just stand back & watch.

Another type of diamond was Okla. U.'s diamond T, which was very much like a power I.  Today it'd be called a diamond I, and a lot of I formation teams use it as one variant.  My team did in 2007.

But if your idea is "triple option look from a pistol formation", then what you should study is the system known as Ski-Gun (after Muskegon HS) or pistolflex.  It won't be exactly what you want, but it'll give you ideas.  I think there was even a pistolflex ass'n or Web site.

I have looked at the power T (specifically the Zeeland Power T) for a couple years now and didn't think it was something that my age groups would have been successful at due to the misdirection, meshing, and vulnerability of the runner without lead blockers or many I should say. Perhaps I am under estimating them because we have proven that even the younger age groups can do more than they are given credit for... I think that is more us as coaches than them as kids.

I looked at the two you suggested and actually found the Diamond Pistol... that's where I am finding the things I am looking for. There is an abundance of information on it through the Pistol scheme even if it is classified as a red zone attack in most... of course this is just prompting more questions :)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 09:55:28 PM by Coach Perry »
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"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."
-Mike Tyson-

Offline tiger46

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Re: Diamond Formation
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2016, 05:38:47 PM »
Quote from: Coach Perry on May 04, 2016, 09:16:16 PM
Hello Everyone,
   I am wondering if anyone has any literature on the Diamond Formation offense? Power point, spreadsheet, old napkins laying around... I am going to run it with 11u and have only found two publications so far... albeit they are pretty comprehensive and concise as well as geared for youth but I am a little nervous about a triple option offense even though it is very simple for the QB to read. Any help/advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

So... How did all this turn out.  FTR, I was rooting for you to go for it!  :D
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Online ZACH

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Re: Diamond Formation
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2016, 07:34:14 PM »
Coltscoach had a diamond pistol playbook thats still avail for download here
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