Author Topic: Jet sweep  (Read 12554 times)

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Offline COACH JC

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2017, 09:53:13 PM »
Honestly, the only reason we even run jet anymore is for the trap, play action flood & QB counter/counter XX off it. Oh & jet pass (sweeper pulls up & throws). The actual sweep itself is just window dressing.
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Offline davecisar

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2017, 10:01:38 PM »
We just tell em it's the guy running down the field wide open wearing the same color jersey as you.

It's no different than a stretch play handoff play action fake right? QB is blind, until he turns around.

Yes, you can see your WR's better out of the gun w/ no spin. But the defense can see the ball better too. At the youth level I believe deception in the passing game is more important than the QB reading a defense.

Against well coached teams- no receiver is 10 yards open
We like our QBs to be able to locate receivers quickly- they are more accurate that way
They can see if the receiver is covered or not
And unlike spinning- which takes longer to do- taking longer to locate the receiver- you have to protect longer
Forget about RUPOs off of it- which we will be experimenting with this year
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline davecisar

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2017, 10:03:50 PM »
Honestly, the only reason we even run jet anymore is for the trap, play action flood & QB counter/counter XX off it. Oh & jet pass (sweeper pulls up & throws). The actual sweep itself is just window dressing.

That I can agree on
Any well coached team can stop/limit the jet sweep if they are in the same ballpark athletically with your team
You cant always cover all the complements- wham, power, counter, trap, wedge and PAP
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2017, 10:11:27 PM »
Against well coached teams- no receiver is 10 yards open
We like our QBs to be able to locate receivers quickly- they are more accurate that way
They can see if the receiver is covered or not
And unlike spinning- which takes longer to do- taking longer to locate the receiver- you have to protect longer
Forget about RUPOs off of it- which we will be experimenting with this year

Yes & no. Good teams are generally more agressive & fly to he football. So we've had a great deal of success w/ play action vs good teams. The ELITE ELITE teams often have the speed to recover, & if ylu don't have elite speed, well then ya, PAP are less effective.

The video of our QB counter off spin action is a good example of my point. Damn near the whole defense flying to where they think the ball is going, our QB has a MASSIVE hole to waltz through, but they have enough team speed to recover. In that game, really all that worked was play action (where our QB was blind before throwing), midline option (again, taking advantage of their agressiveness), counters, & that 1 TD off jet sweep, where we finally got them to slow down a little & not fly to the ball on jet.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 10:22:52 PM by COACH JC »
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2017, 10:18:44 PM »
My jet isnt from traditional UBSW
What I would call tight meshes- great fakes and consistent perimeter blocking- takes time
Crappy jet- anyone can run in 1 practice-

Oopps never mind...just went and looked at your jet series.... SW Spread.

A few thoughts. Ran a lot of this from Empty with a sniffer at times which is basically what you are doing.

Jet counters. QB hands off to the jet man and the QB then lead blocks away from the jet direction. Opposite slot comes underneath the jet man who now has the football and hands to football to him as he takes a path underneath the BB kick out. BB kicks out play side. This play hits fast and in-between the short side TE and PT.

Really nice play that I think you will like. Its bam bam and a real surprise. The only negative....its one more hand off. 
Never mind I missed 43 reverse. Fun play.


Also for jet...have the SE block down to an OLB so the CB follows him since we all see a lot of MAN. That will bring hthe CB right into your BB lead so he does not have to travel very far and gets the TE crack back on the defender that can most easily kill the jet...the OLB...who isnt looking for the SE crack back at all. Its like an open field cross block. Really works well and sets up for the TE Sluggo Route. There are no negatives to this that I have found.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 10:31:27 PM by mahonz »
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2017, 10:25:17 PM »
Yes & no. Good teams are generally more agressive & fly to he football. So we've had a great deal of success w/ play action vs good teams. The ELITE ELITE teams often have the speed to recover, & if ylu don't have elite speed, well then ya, PAP are less effective.

The video of our QB counter off spin action is a good example of my point. Damn near the whole defense flying to where they think the ball is going, our QB has a MASSIVE hole to waltz through, but they have enough team speed to recover. In that game, really all that worked was play action (where our QB was blind before throwing), midline option (again, taking advantage of their agressiveness), counters, & that 1 TD off jet sweep, where we finally got them to slow down a little & not fly to the ball on jet.

There's video. Where?
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Offline davecisar

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2017, 09:31:38 AM »
Oopps never mind...just went and looked at your jet series.... SW Spread.

A few thoughts. Ran a lot of this from Empty with a sniffer at times which is basically what you are doing.

Jet counters. QB hands off to the jet man and the QB then lead blocks away from the jet direction. Opposite slot comes underneath the jet man who now has the football and hands to football to him as he takes a path underneath the BB kick out. BB kicks out play side. This play hits fast and in-between the short side TE and PT.

Really nice play that I think you will like. Its bam bam and a real surprise. The only negative....its one more hand off. 
Never mind I missed 43 reverse. Fun play.


Also for jet...have the SE block down to an OLB so the CB follows him since we all see a lot of MAN. That will bring hthe CB right into your BB lead so he does not have to travel very far and gets the TE crack back on the defender that can most easily kill the jet...the OLB...who isnt looking for the SE crack back at all. Its like an open field cross block. Really works well and sets up for the TE Sluggo Route. There are no negatives to this that I have found.

We had the double handoff in the playbook until 2009- the play is still in our Jet film clips I do at clinics. Not a fan- the 43 hits quicker, takes a lot less practice time and is INFINITELY safer play.

We have had a crack call for a long time on Jet- with the SE on OLB- which sets up a nice play action pass where the SE now has inside leverage on the CB right up the seam after 3 stepping towards the "crack". We like this when the S is either coming hard on Jet OR sitting/slow playing on the backside TE streak- which some of the better teams will do
Also it depends on where the OLB is aligned and playing as to if we can get to him with the SE or not

It all depends on the 3 being able to block consistently well in space OR not- which will also be a bit dependent on how good that CB is
Nothing is guaranteed just because it looks good on paper- lots of other considerations
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 10:40:05 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

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Offline davecisar

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2017, 09:38:30 AM »
Yes & no. Good teams are generally more agressive & fly to he football. So we've had a great deal of success w/ play action vs good teams. The ELITE ELITE teams often have the speed to recover, & if ylu don't have elite speed, well then ya, PAP are less effective.

The video of our QB counter off spin action is a good example of my point. Damn near the whole defense flying to where they think the ball is going, our QB has a MASSIVE hole to waltz through, but they have enough team speed to recover. In that game, really all that worked was play action (where our QB was blind before throwing), midline option (again, taking advantage of their agressiveness), counters, & that 1 TD off jet sweep, where we finally got them to slow down a little & not fly to the ball on jet.

Well coached and good/talented arent always the same thing- I said well coached
Good teams can have crazy good talent that overcomes some average or even poor coaching and yes quite often really talented teams will fly/overpursue to the football because they can get away with it or they simply outscore teams etc

Yes on your QB counter- there wasnt a single defender home backside- they were selling out to stop 1 play- but ignoring the rest. Im not sure many would call that well coached
Any play away from the jet motion would have went for 6 there-
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

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Offline davecisar

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2017, 10:47:01 AM »
Note

Our Jet series improved a bit thanks to a little tip from Joe C- MHCoach
We crow hop our QB on the jet handoff/fake now
He will ride the jet back for a step or two- depends which stride he makes contact with the jet back on- the QB is hopping for a step right before the jet back gets to the mesh point- so the QB has some momentum
After the mesh/short ride- the QB steps behind the jet back- runs hard to the 6 hole- power off-tackle with his playside fist in his other palm- shoulders dipped- running hard for 10 yards
We let the QB know- he wont be getting the ball unless he is faking hard and NOT getting tackled on the fake (which means they arent following him)
If we want to hold the safety we will toss in a Paul Call and fake the pass to the TE- which often times will get a LB to bail as well
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

Winston Churchill

Offline COACH JC

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2017, 11:04:59 AM »
Well coached and good/talented arent always the same thing- I said well coached
Good teams can have crazy good talent that overcomes some average or even poor coaching and yes quite often really talented teams will fly/overpursue to the football because they can get away with it or they simply outscore teams etc

Yes on your QB counter- there wasnt a single defender home backside- they were selling out to stop 1 play- but ignoring the rest. Im not sure many would call that well coached
Any play away from the jet motion would have went for 6 there-

We just watched the college football national champions get burned on a fake, allowing a WR to run downfield without a defender within 20 yards of him on a TD.

Agressive teams bite on fakes. Play action works at every level of football for this reason.

I'm actually very surprised we're on different sides of this argument. You and I both run deception based offenses,  & we both know well coached teams fall for that deception. It's why we run em. 

And I don't understand arguing that spin off jet wont work w/ a pass, because the QB is blind for a bit. Every single under center play action pass is blind. We run waggle, our QB has no idea what's going on w/ the D or his recievers while his back is turned. Waggle's been run successfully for 70 years. When Payton Manning runs his long stretch play action pass, totally blind.

Spin off gun jet is the same thing. The purpose is to gain back the deception you lose by being in the gun. The spin is nothing more than a playaction fake. It freezes the defense just like trap/sweep fake freezes the defense when we run waggle.


And again, on our QB counter, it works really only to our QB Cuz like I said, teams overreact to our FB showing that he's leading sweep. So yes, any play would work involving our QB, hecaise we show full flow on jet, but hiding the ball & spinning certainly helps w/ the deception. And that team did win the national championship. So I think we can agree they were at least WELL coached if not elite coaching.

I never thought i'd be on the other side of an argument about being in favor of deception & spin with you. Lol. But I do appreciate your opinion on the matter. We've just had different experiences w/ it.
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Offline COACH JC

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2017, 11:06:49 AM »
When I get some time, I'll post our pistol swinging gate jet sweep. You want to talk about TIGHT timing. lol. It HAS to be tight.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2017, 11:14:06 AM »
We had the double handoff in the playbook until 2009- the play is still in our Jet film clips I do at clinics. Not a fan- the 43 hits quicker, takes a lot less practice time and is INFINITELY safer play.

We have had a crack call for a long time on Jet- with the SE on OLB- which sets up a nice play action pass where the SE now has inside leverage on the CB right up the seam after 3 stepping towards the "crack". We like this when the S is either coming hard on Jet OR sitting/slow playing on the backside TE streak- which some of the better teams will do
Also it depends on where the OLB is aligned and playing as to if we can get to him with the SE or not

It all depends on the 3 being able to block consistently well in space OR not- which will also be a bit dependent on how good that CB is
Nothing is guaranteed just because it looks good on paper- lots of other considerations

Good stuff. Cross blocking twins for sweep works really well and you dont even have to really block your man all that well....just run some interference long enough for your speed to break out.

Question. Do you pass the football to your BB out of this formation?
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Offline davecisar

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2017, 11:22:03 AM »
We just watched the college football national champions get burned on a fake, allowing a WR to run downfield without a defender within 20 yards of him on a TD.

Agressive teams bite on fakes. Play action works at every level of football for this reason.

I'm actually very surprised we're on different sides of this argument. You and I both run deception based offenses,  & we both know well coached teams fall for that deception. It's why we run em. 

And I don't understand arguing that spin off jet wont work w/ a pass, because the QB is blind for a bit. Every single under center play action pass is blind. We run waggle, our QB has no idea what's going on w/ the D or his recievers while his back is turned. Waggle's been run successfully for 70 years. When Payton Manning runs his long stretch play action pass, totally blind.

Spin off gun jet is the same thing. The purpose is to gain back the deception you lose by being in the gun. The spin is nothing more than a playaction fake. It freezes the defense just like trap/sweep fake freezes the defense when we run waggle.


And again, on our QB counter, it works really only to our QB Cuz like I said, teams overreact to our FB showing that he's leading sweep. So yes, any play would work involving our QB, hecaise we show full flow on jet, but hiding the ball & spinning certainly helps w/ the deception. And that team did win the national championship. So I think we can agree they were at least WELL coached if not elite coaching.

I never thought i'd be on the other side of an argument about being in favor of deception & spin with you. Lol. But I do appreciate your opinion on the matter. We've just had different experiences w/ it.

I never said QB spinning wouldnt work on a pass
At the youth level- its MUCH harder than an in front Jet fake
Its MUCH more than the QB being blind- as we saw from your film- most spinners- especially when they are going to pass- spin fairly slow and clunky
It takes longer- they have to reset their feet, then find their receiver- lots going on there

We ran a spinning QB pass out of our spinner series for many years with varied success- it wasnt consistent at all. Sure we had a few hand grenade TDs- but it wasnt a consistent play
When we ran the same exact play- but direct snapped to the non spinner who was running the sweep fake (everyone else doing their normal spin paths)- and had his eyes downfield- it was a revelation. Now one of our best PA passes- because we just changed from having a non spinner throw it instead of the spinner. We are in so tight, low snap great fakes and the mesh is so tight- the defense is rarely the wiser.

No doubt that team you played had players and was probably coached reasonably well
You said your team averaged 35 ypc over the season with that play. If they scouted you- one would think they would be sitting on that- or at least have the D set up to cover that play whenever you guys jet- especially if like you said not a whole lot of other stuff was working and you guys needed a big play.

We dont have any Peyton Mannings playing for us that I know of  ;D
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 11:32:48 AM by davecisar »
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.

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Offline davecisar

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2017, 11:26:00 AM »
Good stuff. Cross blocking twins for sweep works really well and you dont even have to really block your man all that well....just run some interference long enough for your speed to break out.

Question. Do you pass the football to your BB out of this formation?

We do- but this will be just the 3rd year we have done so
I like to test things out for 3 years with at least 2 different teams before we publish it- otherwise it may just be due to a freaky personnel grouping thing
Our 7th graders did it the last 2 years- one of our other teams did it for 1 year- this will be my second

On your jet series- looks like the only time you give to the Jet back is when the slot is to the side the jet motion is going-
If the slot is on the side away from the motion- then the play is going there
Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 11:34:35 AM by davecisar »
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Offline COACH JC

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Re: Jet sweep
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2017, 11:37:49 AM »
I never said QB spinning wouldnt work on a pass
At the youth level- its MUCH harder than an in front Jet fake
Its MUCH more than the QB being blind- as we saw from your film- most spinners- especially when they are going to pass- spin fairly slow and clunky
It takes longer- they have to reset their feet, then find their receiver- lots going on there

We ran a spinning QB pass out of our spinner series for many years with varied success- it wasnt consistent at all. Sure we had a few hand grenade TDs- but it wasnt a consistent play
When we ran the same exact play- but direct snapped to the non spinner who was running the sweep fake (everyone else doing their normal spin paths)- and had his eyes downfield- it was a revelation. Now one of our best PA passes- because we just changed from having a non spinner throw it instead of the spinner. We are in so tight, low snap great fakes and the mesh is so tight- the defense is rarely the wiser.

We dont have any Peyton Mannings playing for us that I know of  ;D


I guess that's just the fundamental difference between being a gun team & an under center team. Sometimes I forget that the SW in a gun offense. Just don't really think of it like your typical gun, but that's what it is.

For us, as a team that bases under center, it's all about the deception when we throw. Almost every pass play in our under center playbook, requires our QB to start blind. We have a couple straight drop backs, but that's about it. So our QB's are used to turning around blind.

I def agree about the clunkiness. We're MUCH cleaner now. We teach our footwork almost like dance moves now. We want rhythm & consistency in it. No wasted movement.
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