Author Topic: Kick Deep or Not?  (Read 9539 times)

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Offline DL

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Kick Deep or Not?
« on: January 08, 2015, 12:33:10 PM »
I like kicking deep when I have a kid who can do it.    Provided other team doesn't have a superstar back there.   This has been a change for me last 2 coaching seasons from onside only or angled short kicks. 

I found the field position gained is worth a lot more than the rare onside recovery.

For me if we can kick it roughly 30-35 yards in air we are kicking it.

How far do you have to be able to get it before you will kick it or will you not kick deep under any circumstance.

Me:

7-8 No kick
9-10 depends on kickers leg and returner.
11-12+ kick (also can depend on returner)   

Thoughts?

How do you practice kick coverage?    I kick it and we freeze a few times after running downfield to discuss positioning and angles to ball.   Then we go live and two hand touch a runner.

Someone have a better way?   Keep in mind I never have 22 kids unless I am coaching oldest division, so return side never has 11.








Offline spidermac

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 01:13:52 PM »
Well the last time I kicked it deep, it was returned for a TD, that was 3 years ago...that was with a 12 year old team and one of the coaches thought he saw something and said, "Kick it deep on the left side", so I told the kicker to kick it deep on the left side...ball was fielded at the 25 and then he was gone...I haven't kicked it deep since  ::)
None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.

Offline davecisar

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 01:30:48 PM »
I think the thoughts behind if you kick deep or not are a little more in depth than that as far as how I decide:

DO we have a kicker who can consistently kick the ball inside the other teams 15?
Can the kicker get the deep kick to one side of the field or other- is he accurate? Deep directional kicks with an athletic coverage team can be a great weapon.

How dangerous is the return man/men vs how confident I can either stop him or  keep the ball away from him.

Am I coaching a select team- which means I wont have any legit MPRs on my team? All the kids on the team will be reasonable athletes- I don't have to have all my starters in on the kickoff team and gas them out IF my backups are athletes too.

If I am in an MPR league- DOES the rule allow MPR plays there to count. If they do, onside kick to one side and get a few snaps for a couple of MPRs on the other side. IF you coach in an MPR league and have regular roster sizes and legit MPRs, if you kick deep you are going to have to put your best players on the field IF the other team has a kid or kids who can return the ball. When I onside kick with my better players on the field they only have to run 10-15 yards instead of 30-40 yards

How strong is the other teams offense and my defense? If it is a gross mismatch, you may want to take a chance on onside kicks. They are probably going to score anyways
How consistent is my offense vs the other teams defense. If your offense can consistently move the ball- field position wont matter much, onside kick.

How consistent are you at kicking onside. Like anything comes down to coaching, execution and talent. How well teams onside kick varies wildly.

What type of surface is the game being played on? We see much better onside kick recovery rates on Fieldturf fields.
Weather- We see much better onside kick recovery rates when the weather is cold, wet
Weather- Wind- is wind in your favor- kick deep, 40 MPH wind blowing against you- onside kick

This year in Reno- probably had 6 teams who consistently kicked it inside our 15- 8th graders
1 kid was to the goal line at least 4 times- on a bounce

We didn't have a kid who could kick deep or accurate. Our offense was very consistent and we struggled defensively against teams that put us in space- so we onside kicked every time until up by 3 TDs. Our recovery rate was probably just a very conservative 20- 25%, had several games where we got 2. OTOH in 2013 my age 8-9 kids probably only recovered 10-15% of our kicks- but we did recover some important ones.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 02:09:42 PM by davecisar »
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Offline CoachSugg

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 02:20:29 PM »
Simply put.  No!
Kent Sugg
Bridge Creek, OK

Offline Bob Goodman

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 02:45:47 PM »
How far do you have to be able to get it before you will kick it [deep?]
Far enough that their deep returners have to turn & go backwards to get it.

Offline jrk5150

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 06:15:06 PM »
Unless you have athletes good enough where you don't spend any time on D scheming to keep their RB's out of space, then not a chance.

I just can't reconcile the fact we play our D to prevent letting their RB's get into space with kicking to them in space.  Not going to.

We on-sides or pooch to the sideline unless we're up 3 scores.  Period.

Offline darthdaddy17

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 01:46:23 AM »
No never again unless I have too. The first time I kicked it deep this last season was returned for a TD that lost us the game. The second time I did was because we were up 27 against a poorly coached team.
Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit. -Vince Lombardi

Offline CoachDP

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 07:24:36 AM »
DO we have a kicker who can consistently kick the ball inside the other teams 15?
Can the kicker get the deep kick to one side of the field or other- is he accurate? Deep directional kicks with an athletic coverage team can be a great weapon.

How dangerous is the return man/men vs how confident I can either stop him or  keep the ball away from him.

Am I coaching a select team- which means I wont have any legit MPRs on my team? All the kids on the team will be reasonable athletes- I don't have to have all my starters in on the kickoff team and gas them out IF my backups are athletes too.

If I am in an MPR league- DOES the rule allow MPR plays there to count. If they do, onside kick to one side and get a few snaps for a couple of MPRs on the other side. IF you coach in an MPR league and have regular roster sizes and legit MPRs, if you kick deep you are going to have to put your best players on the field IF the other team has a kid or kids who can return the ball. When I onside kick with my better players on the field they only have to run 10-15 yards instead of 30-40 yards

How strong is the other teams offense and my defense? If it is a gross mismatch, you may want to take a chance on onside kicks. They are probably going to score anyways
How consistent is my offense vs the other teams defense. If your offense can consistently move the ball- field position wont matter much, onside kick.

How consistent are you at kicking onside. Like anything comes down to coaching, execution and talent. How well teams onside kick varies wildly.

What type of surface is the game being played on? We see much better onside kick recovery rates on Fieldturf fields.
Weather- We see much better onside kick recovery rates when the weather is cold, wet
Weather- Wind- is wind in your favor- kick deep, 40 MPH wind blowing against you- onside kick

This year in Reno- probably had 6 teams who consistently kicked it inside our 15- 8th graders
1 kid was to the goal line at least 4 times- on a bounce

We didn't have a kid who could kick deep or accurate. Our offense was very consistent and we struggled defensively against teams that put us in space- so we onside kicked every time until up by 3 TDs. Our recovery rate was probably just a very conservative 20- 25%, had several games where we got 2. OTOH in 2013 my age 8-9 kids probably only recovered 10-15% of our kicks- but we did recover some important ones.

Excellent breakdown and analysis.

--Dave
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Offline ZACH

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2015, 01:59:18 PM »
I teach a pop up style kick with a specific tee. Not sure if its legal but I havent been stopped for it.

In rugby we place the ball "backwards" by american standards bc our kicks for "try" could be anywhere.

I bring my backs coach from rugby over once a week for 30 min of kicking. Field goal...punt...kick off. A high short kick on kick off is amazingly successfull.

Kick off coverage we use the yard lines and kick from sideline to teach lanes and leverage. Usually once a week for 10 minutes.
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Offline coachdoug

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2015, 02:37:48 AM »
For me if we can kick it roughly 30-35 yards in air we are kicking it.
I'm confused - maybe I'm missing something here.  If we field a kickoff at our own 25-30 yard line (i.e. a 30-35 yard kick), if we don't return it to at least the 40-45 yard line something is very, very wrong.  If it's an onside kick, we expect to get the ball between our 45 yard line and midfield.  That 5 yard difference in starting field position is worth foregoing the opportunity to get the ball back in addition to essentially eliminating the possibility of one of our best athletes taking advantage of getting the ball in space to return the ball for a TD?

That trade-off makes no sense to me.  I would need to see a consistent 25-30 yard difference in field position (i.e. pinning our opponents inside their 15-25 yard line) before I could justify kicking deep.  Even if you average pinning your opponent at their own 35, that's only a 10-15 difference in field position.  Unless you feel that your defense can prevent a successful 65-yard drive, but not a 50-55 yard drive, then how can that difference in field position be worth more than even a 15-20% chance of getting the ball back plus basically eliminating say a 5%-10% chance of a long return?

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2015, 08:04:44 AM »
We will kick deep if two criteria are made. The first is we have to have a kid who can crush the ball deep. The second is our opponent has to have walked their deep returners up past a point where our kicker can kick beyond. Usually after an onsides kick we see this scenario. We have recovered the ball using this technique.

Offline DL

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 09:30:19 AM »
I'm confused - maybe I'm missing something here.  If we field a kickoff at our own 25-30 yard line (i.e. a 30-35 yard kick), if we don't return it to at least the 40-45 yard line something is very, very wrong.  If it's an onside kick, we expect to get the ball between our 45 yard line and midfield.  That 5 yard difference in starting field position is worth foregoing the opportunity to get the ball back in addition to essentially eliminating the possibility of one of our best athletes taking advantage of getting the ball in space to return the ball for a TD?

That trade-off makes no sense to me.  I would need to see a consistent 25-30 yard difference in field position (i.e. pinning our opponents inside their 15-25 yard line) before I could justify kicking deep.  Even if you average pinning your opponent at their own 35, that's only a 10-15 difference in field position.  Unless you feel that your defense can prevent a successful 65-yard drive, but not a 50-55 yard drive, then how can that difference in field position be worth more than even a 15-20% chance of getting the ball back plus basically eliminating say a 5%-10% chance of a long return?

We kick from 40 and give them the ball at the 50 if we onside.    I found over two seasons if we kick it away and they field it clean they will usually return it to their own 40.   

About a little more than half the time they don't field it clean and they start around the 30.   I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but that 20 yards seems to make a big difference in field position.  If we get the ball back inside their 40 on a 4 and out it seems a lot easier to score than from our our own 40. 

So when we kick away the average starting position is around 35.  Onside it is the 50. 

I don't like high deep medium end over end kicks because they are too easy to catch on the run.   Unless the kick is super high that might work nice.   We try to punch the ball unless the kid can boom it.   Or we try to kick so they have to run and field it.   2 deep players can't cover the whole field at ten.   So we either kick to a side or split them.  Down side is kicker misses ball a lot despite a lot of practice and we never know where ball is going to go for sure.   If we can get a football to bounce hard once past first and hopefully second line then it is really hard to judge which way it is going to go after that for a retuner.  Footballs bounce funny. 

  Upside of that is all of a sudden a miss kick is an onside kick and unpredictability of it makes for a pretty good one.   We did revocer several of those over two seasons. 

Also had two onside kicks returned for touchdowns in one season.   If a kid gets it quick and breaks one tackle he is gone.   So those aren't totally safe in youth ball either. 


Offline davecisar

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2015, 09:34:49 AM »
When we onside we have our best player as a safety to that side mirroring the kick returner
In 180+ games of doing it like this have never had an onside kick returned for a TD- just 1 close call
Our #2,3,4,5 best players are at the spot we are kicking to- they aren't taking it back.

However I do agree with you on deep kicks IF they don't have a great returner and I have a great kicker and a select team with plenty of athletes to put on the KO team
Deep directional kicks to the edge can be tough to handle - especially if you have a horde of fast screaming banchees breathing down your neck. Deep directional kicks can be a weapon under the right circumstances.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 09:37:54 AM by davecisar »
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Offline Wing-n-It

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2015, 09:48:02 AM »
I must be in the minority on this.......

I could care less how far the kicker can kick the ball. I don't do it because I rarely have kids that can cover it

That's why I vote no on the deep kick

I have squib kicked the heck out of if it to the second level,they fall on it because its bouncing around but that's it.

Robert

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Offline DL

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Re: Kick Deep or Not?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2015, 09:50:31 AM »
When we onside we have our best player as a safety to that side mirroring the kick returner
In 180+ games of doing it like this have never had an onside kick returned for a TD- just 1 close call
Our #2,3,4,5 best players are at the spot we are kicking to- they aren't taking it back.

However I do agree with you on deep kicks IF they don't have a great returner and I have a great kicker and a select team with plenty of athletes to put on the KO team
Deep directional kicks to the edge can be tough to handle - especially if you have a horde of fast screaming banchees breathing down your neck. Deep directional kicks can be a weapon under the right circumstances.

Yes, if you have a slow kick off team you shouldn't kick deep and I always, if I am in charge of special teams, use a safety now on kickoffs.