Author Topic: no special teams? does it hurt?  (Read 14130 times)

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Offline patriotsfatboy1

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2014, 08:10:47 AM »
I think a lot of coaches get so caught up in what they need/want two days from now that they hurt themselves for two weeks from now, or two months from now, or a year from now.

They never have time to do it right, but they always have time to do it over.

Why learn to teach a kid when you can just hide him?  Why get better at a scheme when you can just change it?

As the saying goes, be quick, but don't hurry.

Everyone is so concerned with "giving the kids the best chance for success" that the kids often end up being coached for years by lousy coaches.

It happens far too often.  I have MPP's and second stringers in games and some of the other coaches are telling me that I need to put the starter back in.  I always respond with, "I need them to learn and this is how they learn". Invariably, I need that player at some point later in the season to come up with a play and if I don't get them prepared, then it is going to come back and bite us in the butt. 

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2014, 08:27:53 AM »
If you coach them properly for the now, the later is already taken care of.

Offline mahonz

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2014, 12:38:15 PM »
I think a lot of coaches get so caught up in what they need/want two days from now that they hurt themselves for two weeks from now, or two months from now, or a year from now.

They never have time to do it right, but they always have time to do it over.

Why learn to teach a kid when you can just hide him?  Why get better at a scheme when you can just change it?

As the saying goes, be quick, but don't hurry.

Everyone is so concerned with "giving the kids the best chance for success" that the kids often end up being coached for years by lousy coaches.

M

I think coaching boils down to putting kids in a position to succeed right now. I also believe that a bad coach can accomplish this. Plenty of teams win with poor coaching but the kids are having fun by winning. Nothing wrong with that...they are at least playing football....not sokker.  ;)
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline Malibu

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2014, 01:12:58 PM »
Playing exclusively zone in youth basketball is like running the single wing (here comes the cavalry).  ??? :P

Online Michael

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2014, 01:15:30 PM »
here comes the cavalry

Three yards at a time.
“If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself.” ― Albert Einstein

Offline CoachBrian

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2014, 01:18:41 PM »
I've coached basketball for many years, played back in the day and one of my coaches was a former NBA player.  You can't say zone and label all zones the same.  Playing a 2-3 zone is one thing.  Playing a 1-2-2 double team trapping zone or a 1-3-1 zone and doing it effectively is an entirely different thing.  I've coached anywhere from 9 year old's to high school basketball.  I can guarantee you a 1-2-2 double team trapping zone is much more difficult for the kids to learn than man-to-man defense is.

Offline patriotsfatboy1

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2014, 02:15:54 PM »
I've coached basketball for many years, played back in the day and one of my coaches was a former NBA player.  You can't say zone and label all zones the same.  Playing a 2-3 zone is one thing.  Playing a 1-2-2 double team trapping zone or a 1-3-1 zone and doing it effectively is an entirely different thing.  I've coached anywhere from 9 year old's to high school basketball.  I can guarantee you a 1-2-2 double team trapping zone is much more difficult for the kids to learn than man-to-man defense is.

I would agree.  You are talking about a trapping zone.  I am talking about a passive zone with the intent to pack the paint because the other team can't hit a 3 to pull you out of it. 

If you want to talk travel leagues and HS ball, then I am with you.  We played several different defenses and changed it up to prevent a team from getting comfortable.  The one constant was that we played some man-to-man. 

Learning a trapping zone is completely different and not part of any Rec ball scenario.  As Van Gundy (correctly) states, most Rec basketball teams are more concerned with playing as many games as possible and foregoing practice of fundamentals. 

As I say to coaches and players in all of the youth sports that I am part of, you are not going to be putting this ____________ championship on your resume at work, so learn and enjoy it enough that you want to come back next year and do it again. 

Offline CoachBrian

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2014, 03:59:43 PM »
I've coached Rec basketball the last three years and ran a 1-2-2 double team trapping defense.  With our league we only get 7 practices (1 hour each) before games start and then there are no more practices.  It's not easy, but if you prioritize and plan out your practices you can do it.  Some kids don't get really good at the defense until after a few games have been played, but it's worth it.  We've done very well in the win/loss column with it.

This year I am coaching a 10-11 girls Rec team along with my boys Rec team.  I have just one girl with any experience and they just are not going to be able to learn the 1-2-2 defense I like to run.......however we scrimmaged another team that last 15 minutes of practice the other day (we share the court with them during practices) and they ran a pretty good 1-2-2 trapping defense against us.  It worked pretty well for them too.   :D

Anyway, this girls team I've gone to a 2-3 zone for now.  A man-to-man defense was looking very bad.  No one was sticking with their man in scrimmage time.  I'm hoping we can do some man-to-man as the season goes on, but I don't know.

Offline patriotsfatboy1

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2014, 04:02:36 PM »
I've coached Rec basketball the last three years and ran a 1-2-2 double team trapping defense.  With our league we only get 7 practices (1 hour each) before games start and then there are no more practices.  It's not easy, but if you prioritize and plan out your practices you can do it.  Some kids don't get really good at the defense until after a few games have been played, but it's worth it.  We've done very well in the win/loss column with it.

This year I am coaching a 10-11 girls Rec team along with my boys Rec team.  I have just one girl with any experience and they just are not going to be able to learn the 1-2-2 defense I like to run.......however we scrimmaged another team that last 15 minutes of practice the other day (we share the court with them during practices) and they ran a pretty good 1-2-2 trapping defense against us.  It worked pretty well for them too.   :D

Anyway, this girls team I've gone to a 2-3 zone for now.  A man-to-man defense was looking very bad.  No one was sticking with their man in scrimmage time.  I'm hoping we can do some man-to-man as the season goes on, but I don't know.

Not sure if you saw the video in question, but you might want to watch it and then read your post.  I am thinking the premise is that it is not about wins and losses, but actually teaching the kids how to play the game fundamentally first. 

Offline PSLCOACHROB

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2014, 04:06:06 PM »
Playing exclusively zone in youth basketball is like running the single wing (here comes the cavalry).  ??? :P
As Apopka wins ANOTHER 8a state title in Florida.  8) And is that modern cavalry or the horsey kind? I don't know crap about basketball so I can't make any correlations. SW guys teach fundies. Come on man.

Offline CoachBrian

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2014, 04:19:31 PM »
Not sure if you saw the video in question, but you might want to watch it and then read your post.  I am thinking the premise is that it is not about wins and losses, but actually teaching the kids how to play the game fundamentally first.

Yeah I saw the video and to be honest that's another topic than what I was posting about playing zone defense.  But as for the wins and losses thing, be careful with assumptions.  Just because someone says they have done well in the win column doesn't mean they are all about winning or not teaching kids how to play the fundamentals first.  In fact, if you're teaching a proper trapping zone and you are doing well in the win column you are probably putting an emphasis on fundamentals.  And I don't think you can say that someone that is teaching a trapping zone defense is not teaching the kids how to play the game fundamentally first.  My boys know how to play man-to-man defense too, but we will use it very little if at all during the season.  Does that mean I am just trying to get the wins and not emphasizing fundamentals?  I sure hope not if the defense is a more complex defense.....and of course defense is one small part to the game of basketball.

I am always amazed when we play our games.  There are usually only 1 or 2 other teams that even learned a set out of bounds play, maybe one other team that can call a play on offense to run when you really need a basket, etc.  When we scrimmage other teams toward the end of the last few practices before games start I usually have to teach the other team how to properly line-up for the jump ball because their coaches haven't shown them.  And on and on.  And that's probably another reason why my team, which can do all of those things, does pretty well in the win column.  IMO, just like in football, teams that learn the fundamentals tend to do well in the win column.

As many of the great youth football coaches on here have said many times, if you do things the right way and teach the fundamentals the winning will take care of itself.

Offline mahonz

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2014, 04:46:54 PM »
As Apopka wins ANOTHER 8a state title in Florida.  8) And is that modern cavalry or the horsey kind? I don't know crap about basketball so I can't make any correlations. SW guys teach fundies. Come on man.

LOL

All this talk about zone defense Im wondering when Joe is going to chime and ask....How do you all cover the Post Wheel?
Collect moments, not wins.

Online Michael

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2014, 05:10:51 PM »
I've seen three basketball practices in my life, and two of them were these guys, so I think my perspective might be a little warped:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2014/12/16/drowning-in-stars-kentucky-wildcats-thriving-with-platoon-system/

The other was a high school practice, and the coach had coached the state champions at a different school the year before.

And I own this: http://www.amazon.com/Pete-Newells-Playing-Peter-Newell/dp/0736068090/ref=asap_B001IQZPQY?ie=UTF8
“If you can't explain it to a six-year-old, you don't understand it yourself.” ― Albert Einstein

Offline mahonz

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2014, 06:10:08 PM »
I've seen three basketball practices in my life, and two of them were these guys, so I think my perspective might be a little warped:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2014/12/16/drowning-in-stars-kentucky-wildcats-thriving-with-platoon-system/

The other was a high school practice, and the coach had coached the state champions at a different school the year before.

And I own this: http://www.amazon.com/Pete-Newells-Playing-Peter-Newell/dp/0736068090/ref=asap_B001IQZPQY?ie=UTF8


M

I have been to a handful of my Grand Kids practice sessions. I have no idea how to coach basketball but I do know one thing...these guys cant coach.

4 of them are playing this season and having a blast...so that is all that matters at this point.
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline Malibu

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Re: no special teams? does it hurt?
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2014, 06:37:30 PM »
Yeah I saw the video and to be honest that's another topic than what I was posting about playing zone defense.  But as for the wins and losses thing, be careful with assumptions.  Just because someone says they have done well in the win column doesn't mean they are all about winning or not teaching kids how to play the fundamentals first.  In fact, if you're teaching a proper trapping zone and you are doing well in the win column you are probably putting an emphasis on fundamentals.  And I don't think you can say that someone that is teaching a trapping zone defense is not teaching the kids how to play the game fundamentally first.  My boys know how to play man-to-man defense too, but we will use it very little if at all during the season.  Does that mean I am just trying to get the wins and not emphasizing fundamentals?  I sure hope not if the defense is a more complex defense.....and of course defense is one small part to the game of basketball.

I am always amazed when we play our games.  There are usually only 1 or 2 other teams that even learned a set out of bounds play, maybe one other team that can call a play on offense to run when you really need a basket, etc.  When we scrimmage other teams toward the end of the last few practices before games start I usually have to teach the other team how to properly line-up for the jump ball because their coaches haven't shown them.  And on and on.  And that's probably another reason why my team, which can do all of those things, does pretty well in the win column.  IMO, just like in football, teams that learn the fundamentals tend to do well in the win column.

As many of the great youth football coaches on here have said many times, if you do things the right way and teach the fundamentals the winning will take care of itself.

Big sigh.  The point is that all defense boils down to man to man principles and teaches kids proper defensive technique (foot fight, drop step, help side, help the helper, etc.).  The point that some trapping defenses are difficult to teach has nothing to do with the point.  Any coach at higher levels will tell you to run exclusively (or close) man defense.  Zones can be taught later and every zone defense is run differently, so teaching them now does nothing.  And, running plays?  We call it granimals youth basketball at clinics.  Complete waste of time.