Author Topic: PAT Blocking Schemes  (Read 6778 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Andrew76

  • Bronze
  • Posts: 596
  • Total likes: 13
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: 6-3
  • Offense: Undecided
  • Title: Head Coach
PAT Blocking Schemes
« on: September 28, 2014, 10:55:23 AM »
What have you guys used for blocking schemes on PAT?  I've been trying he lean inside technique, but that's just not working for me.

Offline Bob Goodman

  • Platinum
  • Posts: 9116
  • Total likes: 296
  • Coaching: 10 & Under
  • Defense: 4-4 Stack
  • Offense: Wing T
  • Title: Assistant
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 11:02:13 AM »
What goes wrong?

Offline matt8188

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1068
  • Total likes: 6
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Assistant
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 07:15:05 PM »
What have you guys used for blocking schemes on PAT?  I've been trying he lean inside technique, but that's just not working for me.

I know this is a super old post to be bumping, but I like to put a 2i and a 3 on the offenses right guard. Then I'll stack a jumper in behind him.

If you really want to go all out and you know they're not going to fake, you can do this to both guards and use 2 jumpers.
"People think I'm the best damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything l know"-Bear Bryant

"The measure of who we are, is what we do, with what we have."-Vince Lombardi

Offline WBCoach

  • Copper
  • Posts: 451
  • Total likes: 33
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Undecided
  • Title: Other
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 08:51:45 PM »
Andrew I had the same question. Did you ever find out anything that works better then leaning in?
Team work: good as gold

Offline coachdoug

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1061
  • Total likes: 260
  • "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." - V. Lombardi
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2015, 01:20:17 AM »
I've never found a better scheme than "leaning in" although there is a whole lot more to it than simply leaning in.  It starts with the stance - we want the linemen's feet as wide as possible - if the blocking goes right - no one is coming up the middle and the only chance the defense has for a block is a speed rush off the edge, so we want to make that track as long as possible.  We tell the snapper to get his feet set as quickly as possible, then the Guards off him, then the Tackles off the Guards, etc.  Once their feet are set (as wide as possible), the holder verifies that we have 11 and everyone's set and the kicker is ready, then he calls, "Set" and then he flicks his fingers to the center to signify that he's ready.  (We work with the snapper to ensure that he varies how quickly he snaps it after the signal - the last thing we want is the defense to time their charge off the signal - we tell the snapper that the signal is simply an indication that the holder and kicker are ready for the snap - it is NOT a snap count or anything similar that requires an immediate response - we expect the snapper to then take a deep breath or two before delivering the snap - if the snapper delivers the snap within a half second or so from receiving the signal in practice, there are consequences (up-downs, push-ups, etc.) so this rarely happens more than once or twice.

The linemen stay in a two-point stance (we've also done it from a three-point with about the same results) - at the snap, they step inside with their inside foot behind their inside teammate's outside foot.  They also drive their inside shoulder into their neighbor's hip, creating an impenetrable wall.  We go to great lengths to teach them that they are covering an area, NOT blocking a man.  Yes, they are going to get hit, maybe even cheap-shotted, but they need to hang in there and make the block - they can get even later (between the whistles!!).   They keep their outside foot in place ("locked in cement" is how we describe it to them - this is critically important, their natural instinct will be to step into contact with both feet, but if they move that outside foot, it creates a lane for another defender to block the kick - that outside foot MUST NOT MOVE).  That is the case for the Gs & Ts (the snapper just worries about snapping the ball and then gets to the ground if there is violence around him).  The Es step inside the same as the Gs and Ts, but they can't commit totally to the inside like their interior counterparts - they have to cover the inside first, then make sure no one is trying to go outside them as well.  The Wings line up with their inside foot even with the E's outside foot, but about a foot behind it (aligned at about a 45-degree angle to the outside).  They also keep their outside foot "locked in cement" and step inside with their inside foot, making sure they lock down the shortest, inside route to a kick-block first.  Once the inside threat is eliminated/contained, hopefully the wing still has enough left to give a shove to any outside rushers to slow them down.  Even without that, it should be enough to get the kick off, but we want to slow everyone down as much as possible - all it takes is a slightly off-target snap or a sloppy hold and that timing is thrown off and a rusher that would normally never get there suddenly has a highlight video kick block to show off to everyone at your team's expense.

The ends and the wings must keep an internal clock as well as listen for a "Fire" signal.  If they hear "Fire" or if more than 2 seconds have passed since the snap, we tell the ends to go towards the back of the end zone (assuming this is a PAT) and the wings to release to the flat just across the goal line.  If it is a bad snap, or if the holder mishandles the snap, we want the holder to pick up the ball, then reverse pivot (i.e. turn towards the inside and away from the line of scrimmage) then look first to run to the end zone, or throw to either the wing or the end if the run isn't there - what we don't want the holder to do is turn forward towards the line of scrimmage - that will turn him directly into the rush of the edge defender and cause a large collision and loss of yardage (generally also a turnover on a down where you're attempting a field goal), so you want to be sure to drill your holder to turn away from the line of scrimmage if he's picking up an errant snap.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:26:07 AM by coachdoug »

Offline matt8188

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1068
  • Total likes: 6
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Assistant
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2015, 02:07:15 PM »
I know this is a super old post to be bumping, but I like to put a 2i and a 3 on the offenses right guard. Then I'll stack a jumper in behind him.

If you really want to go all out and you know they're not going to fake, you can do this to both guards and use 2 jumpers.

I clearly misread this. I thought we were talking about schemes for attempting to block a kick.
"People think I'm the best damn coach in the world, but Neyland taught me everything l know"-Bear Bryant

"The measure of who we are, is what we do, with what we have."-Vince Lombardi

Offline WBCoach

  • Copper
  • Posts: 451
  • Total likes: 33
  • Coaching: 12 & Under
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Undecided
  • Title: Other
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2015, 06:50:11 AM »
I've never found a better scheme than "leaning in" although there is a whole lot more to it than simply leaning in.  It starts with the stance - we want the linemen's feet as wide as possible - if the blocking goes right - no one is coming up the middle and the only chance the defense has for a block is a speed rush off the edge, so we want to make that track as long as possible.  We tell the snapper to get his feet set as quickly as possible, then the Guards off him, then the Tackles off the Guards, etc.  Once their feet are set (as wide as possible), the holder verifies that we have 11 and everyone's set and the kicker is ready, then he calls, "Set" and then he flicks his fingers to the center to signify that he's ready.  (We work with the snapper to ensure that he varies how quickly he snaps it after the signal - the last thing we want is the defense to time their charge off the signal - we tell the snapper that the signal is simply an indication that the holder and kicker are ready for the snap - it is NOT a snap count or anything similar that requires an immediate response - we expect the snapper to then take a deep breath or two before delivering the snap - if the snapper delivers the snap within a half second or so from receiving the signal in practice, there are consequences (up-downs, push-ups, etc.) so this rarely happens more than once or twice.

The linemen stay in a two-point stance (we've also done it from a three-point with about the same results) - at the snap, they step inside with their inside foot behind their inside teammate's outside foot.  They also drive their inside shoulder into their neighbor's hip, creating an impenetrable wall.  We go to great lengths to teach them that they are covering an area, NOT blocking a man.  Yes, they are going to get hit, maybe even cheap-shotted, but they need to hang in there and make the block - they can get even later (between the whistles!!).   They keep their outside foot in place ("locked in cement" is how we describe it to them - this is critically important, their natural instinct will be to step into contact with both feet, but if they move that outside foot, it creates a lane for another defender to block the kick - that outside foot MUST NOT MOVE).  That is the case for the Gs & Ts (the snapper just worries about snapping the ball and then gets to the ground if there is violence around him).  The Es step inside the same as the Gs and Ts, but they can't commit totally to the inside like their interior counterparts - they have to cover the inside first, then make sure no one is trying to go outside them as well.  The Wings line up with their inside foot even with the E's outside foot, but about a foot behind it (aligned at about a 45-degree angle to the outside).  They also keep their outside foot "locked in cement" and step inside with their inside foot, making sure they lock down the shortest, inside route to a kick-block first.  Once the inside threat is eliminated/contained, hopefully the wing still has enough left to give a shove to any outside rushers to slow them down.  Even without that, it should be enough to get the kick off, but we want to slow everyone down as much as possible - all it takes is a slightly off-target snap or a sloppy hold and that timing is thrown off and a rusher that would normally never get there suddenly has a highlight video kick block to show off to everyone at your team's expense.

The ends and the wings must keep an internal clock as well as listen for a "Fire" signal.  If they hear "Fire" or if more than 2 seconds have passed since the snap, we tell the ends to go towards the back of the end zone (assuming this is a PAT) and the wings to release to the flat just across the goal line.  If it is a bad snap, or if the holder mishandles the snap, we want the holder to pick up the ball, then reverse pivot (i.e. turn towards the inside and away from the line of scrimmage) then look first to run to the end zone, or throw to either the wing or the end if the run isn't there - what we don't want the holder to do is turn forward towards the line of scrimmage - that will turn him directly into the rush of the edge defender and cause a large collision and loss of yardage (generally also a turnover on a down where you're attempting a field goal), so you want to be sure to drill your holder to turn away from the line of scrimmage if he's picking up an errant snap.
Thanks Doug, this is more detailed and better coaching points then how we did it last year.
Team work: good as gold

Offline coachdoug

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1061
  • Total likes: 260
  • "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." - V. Lombardi
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2015, 03:38:49 AM »
I clearly misread this. I thought we were talking about schemes for attempting to block a kick.
I think the OP was asking about to block for the kicking on PAT/FGs, but how to block the same defensively is a good discussion as well.  There are two basic schools of thought - either overload one edge and try to create an unblocked rusher that can get there, or as you suggested, use big bodies to push back the interior guys and use athletes to step in behind them and jump to make the block.  I have tried both techniques and have not had enough success with either to brag, but have had enough success with both to at least disrupt our opponents.  I'm not sure what the better strategy is.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 23946
  • Total likes: 2314
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 7 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2015, 10:30:20 AM »
Since there is a "halo" rule at every level for the Center....we make that halo a bit bigger by alignment by widening the OG's.

This takes the pressure off the edge blockers because the edge rushers are now a step or two further away. Now the wings that are normally on each side play closer to the holder and block inside out. The OLM all lean as Doug describes but we don't interlock post snap. Step down and engage.

Tempo beat everything. Snap Seat Kick in one fluid motion. Once that gets to about 2 seconds you don't even have to worry about the edge....only the middle.

Here is a video of 4th graders executing a PAT using this formation.

https://youtu.be/qxeVm64VBwc
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline coachdoug

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1061
  • Total likes: 260
  • "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." - V. Lombardi
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2015, 07:38:09 PM »
Thanks for the video, M, that's helpful.  A couple comments:

 - The official Federation rule is that a defensive player shall not charge directly into the snapper when the offensive team is in a scrimmage-kick formation.  So, it is perfectly legal to charge through the A gaps - if those A gappers should get blocked into the snapper, that should NOT be a foul.  Your formation is an invitation to rush straight up the middle for any team that knows the rules.

 - Furthermore, the snapper is only protected in a legal scrimmage kick formation, which is defined as having a holder in position to receive the snap at least 7 yards behind the snapper (i.e. on or behind the 10 yard line), which the team in the  video clearly didn't comply with, so the defense would have been well within its rights to not only rush the A gaps, but to blow up the snapper.  Of course, youth refs are going to protect that snapper regardless (in the name of safety, but if you know the rule, and you do - or you do now even if you didn't before) - so, those kids should be aligned properly.

Obviously, if your league has a different rule that's a different discussion, but the assumption on this board should be that we're operating under Federation rules unless specifically mentioned otherwise.

Offline mahonz

  • Administrator
  • Kryptonite
  • Posts: 23946
  • Total likes: 2314
  • No Wimps
  • Coaching: 7 & Under
  • Defense: DC 46
  • Offense: Single Wing
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2015, 08:56:59 PM »
Thanks for the video, M, that's helpful.  A couple comments:

 - The official Federation rule is that a defensive player shall not charge directly into the snapper when the offensive team is in a scrimmage-kick formation.  So, it is perfectly legal to charge through the A gaps - if those A gappers should get blocked into the snapper, that should NOT be a foul.  Your formation is an invitation to rush straight up the middle for any team that knows the rules.

 - Furthermore, the snapper is only protected in a legal scrimmage kick formation, which is defined as having a holder in position to receive the snap at least 7 yards behind the snapper (i.e. on or behind the 10 yard line), which the team in the  video clearly didn't comply with, so the defense would have been well within its rights to not only rush the A gaps, but to blow up the snapper.  Of course, youth refs are going to protect that snapper regardless (in the name of safety, but if you know the rule, and you do - or you do now even if you didn't before) - so, those kids should be aligned properly.

Obviously, if your league has a different rule that's a different discussion, but the assumption on this board should be that we're operating under Federation rules unless specifically mentioned otherwise.

D

We hope they shoot the A Gaps....that's the idea. Then we ignore the edge rushers and get our Tempo going.

From 2nd thru 5th grade our League enforces.... 5+ yards for the holder gives the Center his halo.....7+ from 6th grade on....so you are correct.  :)

We started doing this coaching the adults. Its easier to protect the A Gaps instead with the wings over trying block the edge rushers. Picked this idea up from one of our place kickers. The only issue we have had with the little guys is the wings not attacking forward enough and getting in the way..... and the kicker kicking the football right into the backs of their helmets.  ???
Collect moments, not wins.

Offline coachdoug

  • Silver
  • Posts: 1061
  • Total likes: 260
  • "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." - V. Lombardi
  • Coaching: High School
  • Defense: Other
  • Offense: Spread Formation
  • Title: Head Coach
Re: PAT Blocking Schemes
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2015, 09:55:02 AM »
Fair enough - that makes sense.  Widen the A gaps and have the wings block anyone coming through there and that will widen the ends enough that any edge rushers won't be able to get there in time.  Also makes sense that your league shortens the distance for the holder to still be in a scrimmage kick formation for the little guys.  Usually I hate special rules, but that's a good common sense adjustment based on age/size.