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Author Topic: 2018 Spring Preview  (Read 9466 times)

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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2018, 10:36:34 AM »
Criteria was that they signed up.

--Wow, you set your bar pretty low.

I'm not saying that we're not responsible for being in this situation. The kids in question are partly responsible, but we allowed it.

--Disagree.  I don't believe the kids are responsible for it at all, if you allowed it.

 Other than that, what's not to get? 10% of our team is messing up our mojo.

--I understand that.  But you're allowing it.

The last one said he's done with football.

--That's fine, too.  No point in trying to convince someone who doesn't want to be there.  But I think you cast as large a net as possible letting them know how challenging it's going to be.  Unless you're concerned that challenge may make it too hard for your studs...

--Dave

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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2018, 10:40:04 AM »
I suppose we could have tried to field two teams this year.

Not if you only have the man power for one. 

Then why not let them know there will only be one team, but that you can only carry X number of players?  Some kids will choose right then and there not to participate (because they're afraid to compete), but at least you opened the door to them.  They just chose not to walk through it.

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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2018, 10:50:33 AM »
My short stint at the HS level went like this. I was part of the Freshman Staff.

Day One - Shells with 65 kids running around looking important.
Day Two - Same but with the V Header present for 30 minutes.
Day Three- Full Pads with 55 kids running around looking important.
Day Four - Same but with the V Header present for 30 minutes.
Day Five - Header hands us a list with 20 jersey numbers to cut and then hands us an O and D to run with these parting words...

--Not sure what this has to do with your Spring team.

Run this to the letter or I will cut you next.

You didn't discuss because this guy rarely lost a game. 

--And so ever since that traumatic, life-changing day, you've approached it like this?

I also learned how to cut at the semi pro level. Had to get to 60 from 250 by the last week of pre season. That was easy. I just gave my cuts to our 400 pound Bounty Hunter Head of Security and he handled the rest.

--I understand cuts.  I understand when you only have so many seats on the bus, helmets in the bin or a league rule that stops you from adding at 35 (or whatever).  But unless I've mis-read, this is about talent (which is fine IF that's what you want to make this about; heck, every team has their own criteria).  But as Lar said, they just sign up (so your criteria is pretty low).  I just don't think that's the best way to do things, as you might overlook someone who could bring something to the table, and more importantly you decide who should have opportunities instead of players deciding whether they want the opportunity.

--Dave
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 10:52:54 AM by CoachDP »
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2018, 10:55:44 AM »
The dealio is most of these kids just want to be with their friends and part of something bigger than themselves

Exactly, and this is the part I'm struggling with. On the one hand, I love these kids and I'm happy that they found something to be a part of. On the other hand, Mike explained that this team has grown beyond our control and has become a scary machine and these players just don't fit. Emotionally, I want to keep them and let them be happy. Logically, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Quote
They arent trouble makers or distractions

As long as they arent a major distraction to others and the parents arent pains- we are happy to have them

One of ours was absolutely bringing our team down. Players were pissed at him. Minimum talent times minimum effort, yet would trash talk his teammates as if he was so good he didn't need to practice. A few of our players mentioned that to me. Several of our players mentioned that to my son.

The other two had more than their share of discipline issues. Goofing around, not paying attention, standing still during live drills, etc. Most practices saw them running one or more punishment laps. That weighed on my vote.

Quote
Sometimes they are kids our better kids rally behind- which is cool IMO

That was also a factor.  Our scared, tiny guy was playing WR one game and the other team's CB was a stud. The CB saw blood in the water and was really giving our guy the business. Legal, but unnecessary. Our guy was crying, so I told him to go to our man-child and explain to him what was going on. Our man-child absolutely put the boots to that CB for 3 straight plays until he left the game in tears. That was cool.

I drafted a post a few days ago and decided to delete it. It was about the 2 kids that I absolutely gave up on. First two kids I've ever given up on, yet both on the same team. One was our 7th grade season and the other our 8th. The one from 7th came around under a different coach. I deleted it because I didn't really have a point other than feeling bad about it. I was also wondering if the age had something to do with it (7th and 8th grade).

One of reasons for my OP was to put it out there that we were cutting some kids for the first time. I feel that this fundamentally changes the type of team we are and must be considered when we start posting results, film etc. So this Spring, when I start going on about how awesome full time Mega Wide Beast is, the fact that we are select has to be considered.  :)
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Offline mahonz

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2018, 11:01:22 AM »
Not if you only have the man power for one. 

Then why not let them know there will only be one team, but that you can only carry X number of players?  Some kids will choose right then and there not to participate (because they're afraid to compete), but at least you opened the door to them.  They just chose not to walk through it.

--Dave

I might have been able to get enough coaches together for 2 teams. Certainly could have found enough players.  Things got a bit out of hand last season so I nipped it in the bud this season.

I have already turned down a half dozen requests from kids we dont know and counting.....so we are "selecting". Plus the League usually has a few stragglers from surrounding areas with no home that we take in....but not this season. We are full at 32.

Decided to create an atmosphere strictly for those that have earned it. If they didn't have a MPR I'd probably take a different approach. The whole MP thing wears on me over time for a number of reasons. It becomes entitlement for some even though I probably do a better job of managing rosters than most. We typically carry the most players yet we never get complaints about playing time. It also falls painfully short as a disciplinary thing because I cant fully bench a kid in season without a bunch of drama.

Maybe I need to be a HS Coach...or retire and why the decision was made to treat this as a full cut team....legally. 
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Offline mahonz

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 11:09:54 AM »
My short stint at the HS level went like this. I was part of the Freshman Staff.

Day One - Shells with 65 kids running around looking important.
Day Two - Same but with the V Header present for 30 minutes.
Day Three- Full Pads with 55 kids running around looking important.
Day Four - Same but with the V Header present for 30 minutes.
Day Five - Header hands us a list with 20 jersey numbers to cut and then hands us an O and D to run with these parting words...

--Not sure what this has to do with your Spring team.

Run this to the letter or I will cut you next.

You didn't discuss because this guy rarely lost a game. 

--And so ever since that traumatic, life-changing day, you've approached it like this?

I also learned how to cut at the semi pro level. Had to get to 60 from 250 by the last week of pre season. That was easy. I just gave my cuts to our 400 pound Bounty Hunter Head of Security and he handled the rest.

--I understand cuts.  I understand when you only have so many seats on the bus, helmets in the bin or a league rule that stops you from adding at 35 (or whatever).  But unless I've mis-read, this is about talent (which is fine IF that's what you want to make this about; heck, every team has their own criteria).  But as Lar said, they just sign up (so your criteria is pretty low).  I just don't think that's the best way to do things, as you might overlook someone who could bring something to the table, and more importantly you decide who should have opportunities instead of players deciding whether they want the opportunity.

--Dave


Oh I was just poking fun at myself with Jake.  :)

One cut was a talent issue if you want to call it that. I call it a safety issue. Kid was probably just fine until the speed of the game amp'd up. He became so intimidated last Spring it turned into tears. He does not play of our Fall team but when I show up to watch his team play....he is over with me having a nice visit.  :o

Its all about the uniform and I will admit I will miss him.

The others certainly have the tools physically....mentally its a whole different ballgame.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 11:12:57 AM »
--Wow, you set your bar pretty low.
Guilty and fully understand that this is why we're in this pickle.

Quote
--Disagree.  I don't believe the kids are responsible for it at all, if you allowed it.
Agree to disagree. Up to about 4th grade, I agree. As 6th, 7th and 8th graders, the players own at least part of the blame.  27 players on our team get it and buy into it.  3 believe they are "special". One seems to have come around and at least has us believing he "gets it", for the time being.

Quote
--I understand that.  But you're allowing it.
This is true.

Dave, I've always admired your approach, particularly the crucible at the beginning of the season. That, to me really separates the kids with heart and passion from those that don't. It's very fair because you could weed out the kid with D1 talent, but no guts for the game as well as keep the kid with zero talent and the heart of a lion. I've discussed this with every guy I've coached under. In the Fall, it's simply not an option. Our true intentions wouldn't matter. The league/org would interpret it as "running off" kids. Once they pay their money and are assigned to our roster, they play as long as they want to. Our MPP rules are borderline extreme. I call it "Football Welfare". 

In the Spring, we're free to do what we want. We could implement the crucible and issue refunds to the kids who quit. We don't. I could tell you that it would be too much of a paradigm shift from Fall to Spring, but let's call it like it is. We just don't want to. Even if we did, one of these kids would have no problem completing the conditioning. I think he weighs 60lbs. If we told him to roll the field, he'd probably just let the wind blow him.
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Offline davecisar

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2018, 11:15:02 AM »

Exactly, and this is the part I'm struggling with. On the one hand, I love these kids and I'm happy that they found something to be a part of. On the other hand, Mike explained that this team has grown beyond our control and has become a scary machine and these players just don't fit. Emotionally, I want to keep them and let them be happy. Logically, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


The other two had more than their share of discipline issues. Goofing around, not paying attention, standing still during live drills, etc. Most practices saw them running one or more punishment laps. That weighed on my vote.


I think MOST MPRs are going to have some minor attention issues
Especially on teams where they dont get a lot of reps or where numbers are high
We are an 11 in 11 out on every team rep- so most of the kids stay engaged
During Indys - they all get the same number of reps- lots and fast etc

MOST MPRs are going to have some lack of aggression and ability issues- that's why they are MPRs
Its par for the course- for me a single "penalty" per practice wouldnt be a big deal- certainly not worthy of cutting

At the end of the day- a team that purges its MPRs- through whatever means- dramatically changes its equation- especially in MPR rule leagues
If the rule is say 12 plays and there are 4 kids- that is a minimum of 48 player snaps
It totally changes what you can run and when you can run it- schemes- plays etc

If Spring is about pure development- experimentation- not winnning championships- I dont get how those weaker kids somehow dont fit in
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM by davecisar »
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Offline mahonz

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2018, 11:15:42 AM »
Again, I don't get the "dead weight" thing?  How can they be dead weight if they're on the team?  I mean, they had to get through your criteria to get on the team.  And if the criteria is hard enough, then I can't understand how they can get through the criteria, but are too lazy to play.  Makes no sense.

--Dave

Were you able to cut in PW? It does not matter what the situation is or is not....youth ball is a no cut deal expect when you field an Independent team in our Spring League. We can roster whomever we want.

Every team carries some dead weight....you know that. They are the kids you are hoping will break out soon.
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Offline mahonz

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2018, 11:24:20 AM »
I guess part of it is because the stakes seem so low to be cutting guys. I mean, local youth spring ball? If you guys were traveling & doing tournaments, i'd get it. But to be a unit all these years & just cut 2 kids.... I don't know. To me that should be a team decision. I mean if those kids truly are an albatross & stealing reps, let the kids who's reps they're stealing weigh in on it.   

Anyhow, not a right or wrong thing. Just presenting another option.  I can see both perspectives. I battle w/ this stuff too. We had a kid this year who was TINY. Absolutely TERRIFIED. He literally cried mutiple times, on the field, due to fear. I thought a number of times about what a pain in the ass it was gonna be to coach this kid.

Talked to his dad, & his dad told me how much he loved football. I mean, was an absolute fanatic. Played flag for years. Long story short, he ended the year doing a great job, great kid, & i'm glad we didn't quit on him, even tho I def had the thoughts cross my mind.

The decision was unanimous when I posed the question. I actually had 5 on my list initially. 

We all have our feel good stories. Good script for sure. This isnt one of those stories.
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2018, 11:24:28 AM »
Things got a bit out of hand last season so I nipped it in the bud this season.

--Okay, so I don't know what this means.  I feel like there's more to the story than what you and Lar have shared.

I have already turned down a half dozen requests from kids we dont know and counting.....so we are "selecting". Plus the League usually has a few stragglers from surrounding areas with no home that we take in....but not this season. We are full at 32.

--Requests?  What does a request have to do with anything?  You practice (or have try-outs) from this date to that date.  End of discussion.  Not sure what "requests" has to do with this.

Decided to create an atmosphere strictly for those that have earned it.

--Again, so what's the criteria?  "Earned it?"  What does that mean.  Explain it to me, because I'm not at your practices.

If they didn't have a MPR I'd probably take a different approach. The whole MP thing wears on me over time for a number of reasons.

--Why?

It becomes entitlement for some even though I probably do a better job of managing rosters than most.

--Entitlement?  Let me give an example:  If to play on our team you had to be able to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, jog 6,000 miles across the United States and back and stand on one leg for 36 hours, then no one who completes this (regardless of talent) comes across as entitled.  They earned it.  There's no way someone who's completed all that hasn't earned it.  On the other hand, if your only criteria for playing on your team is a sign-up, then I can understand how you'd get plenty of players with all sorts of issues (entitlement issues and others).  Those players aren't vested.  And there's no reason they should be vested.  They didn't have to earn anything or work for it.  How can you expect a player to learn how to work for something and appreciate it when you don't hold him to that criteria?

It also falls painfully short as a disciplinary thing because I cant fully bench a kid in season without a bunch of drama.

--I don't understand how that can be, either.  So at the beginning of the season at your parents meeting when your parents agree to how you determine when players are benched, then they change on you when it really happens?  I've never had that experience once we started our meetings.  Had that issue before we had meetings, but not since then.

Maybe I need to be a HS Coach...or retire and why the decision was made to treat this as a full cut team....legally.

--I dunno what being a HS Coach has to do with it.  I'm a HS Coach and I don't cut kids; never have.  You're a youth coach and have figured out how to do it. 

--I don't have an issue with you cutting players; it's your team.  What I don't understand is the reasons you give for cutting players.

--Dave

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 11:27:30 AM by CoachDP »
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2018, 11:37:54 AM »
Were you able to cut in PW?

No.  But players and parents quickly learned how hard it was going to be to play for us (if they didn't already know before they got to our team.  Most already did.)  But kids made those decisions as to whether they wanted to play.  It's always been hard for our players.  We make it be that way so that they'll be vested, committed and determined.  That's why the kids who played for us, were so consistent in their commitment and we, in turn, in our teams' results over the years.  If the only criteria is to sign-up, well I can't tell by just looking at a kid what's in his heart and mind.  But I can sure give him an opportunity to show me.  And if he doesn't want to play, or we're "too hard" for him, then he'll reveal it.  He'll either leave on his own accord, or he won't complete the tasks it takes to be on our team and if he doesn't complete those tasks, then PW says I have to send him home, or he gets walked to the fence to have a discussion with mom and mom was at the meeting where she learned what the criteria was.  So she either takes him home, or sends him back out to the field to complete it.

--Dave
"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement:
"I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go." #BattleReady newhope

Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2018, 11:40:34 AM »
I think MOST MPRs are going to have some minor attention issues
Especially on teams where they dont get a lot of reps or where numbers are high
We are an 11 in 11 out on every team rep- so most of the kids stay engaged
During Indys - they all get the same number of reps- lots and fast etc

MOST MPRs are going to have some lack of aggression and ability issues- that's why they are MPRs
Its par for the course- for me a single "penalty" per practice wouldnt be a big deal- certainly not worthy of cutting

All true, and I really do struggle with it.

Quote
At the end of the day- a team that purges its MPRs- through whatever means- dramatically changes its equation- especially in MPR rule leagues
If the rule is say 12 plays and there are 4 kids- that is a minimum of 48 player snaps
It totally changes what you can run and when you can run it- schemes- plays etc
Agree, totally.

Quote
If Spring is about pure development- experimentation- not winnning championships- I dont get how those weaker kids somehow dont fit in

This Spring is different. It's about saying goodbye to a special group of kids.

As far as the weaker kids, I think everyone one the staff had their breaking point with these guys. For Mike, I could see it building. He's out there doing advanced calculus to make sure everyone is getting playing time to the point it takes away his ability to watch the game. This means he has to trust other coaches to watch the game and some of us aren't really ready for prime time from a "big picture" perspective. So he's out there busting his butt knowing that a kid who worked his tail off all week is getting short changed because the defense is off the field in 4 plays. So he finds ways to put them in on offense. Then he over hears two of our minimum effort guys behind him giggling through a "your mama" battle.  Repeat this enough times and you run out of patience.

I'm the absolute worst when it comes to stray puppies. Yet, my breaking point came when I cancelled an o-line indy/group practice and sent the big boys over to Mike to work D-line just so I could teach 3 kids how to stalk block. They seemed to respond, I saw some flashes of hope and at the end walked away, patting myself on the back for being such a good "out of the box" coach. 5 minutes later, we're doing Team and this kid is in tears because his assignment is to stalk block our best corner. He's crying because he's afraid he might get trucked. His words. I go over and reassure him, remind him of his technique as well as the fact that in football EVERYONE gets trucked at some point. As I walk back to my spot, I turn around and he's right back to playing "giggle fart" with another Trick or Treater, eyes still wet from tears.

Mike said it best. Stealing plays/reps/time/attention from kids who deserve it.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2018, 11:49:16 AM »
--I don't understand how that can be, either.  So at the beginning of the season at your parents meeting when your parents agree to how you determine when players are benched, then they change on you when it really happens?  I've never had that experience once we started our meetings.  Had that issue before we had meetings, but not since then.

League rules. Coaches in our league have evolved to be very good at skirting the MPP rules. As a result, the league has some VERY specific rules regarding minimum play. You can cut a kid's plays in half for attendance, but you can't outright bench him for a game.
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Offline davecisar

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2018, 11:52:59 AM »
ALL of us who have MPR rules- or now in my case an internal MPR standard- work our butts off to get our MPRs their snaps
We come up with game plans, schemes and plays or schemes we can and cant run when x, y or z are in
EVERYONE struggles with it- especially when you have high roster number teams- like yours and mine

Yes- it is stressful for EVERYONE and for those who do it right- are legit- dont eliminate their MPRs over time by whatever means- have a distinct and significant advantage over those who do not

I found it very interesting how our older league did things
Say 45 teams at the youngest age group
About 40 teams at the middle age group
About 15 teams at the oldest age group- Programs that had multiple teams at the younger age groups- as time went by they would purge their teams of weaker kids
Some with 5 younger teams, 4 middle age teams and then 1 older team  ::) ::)
We on the other hand- most years had just 1 team at every age group and kept them all- we were playing with a completely different deck than our competition

When I coached select- with NO MPRS it was a totally different equation
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 11:55:21 AM by davecisar »
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