Author Topic: 2018 Spring Preview  (Read 7395 times)

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Offline mahonz

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2018, 11:54:09 AM »
Things got a bit out of hand last season so I nipped it in the bud this season.

--Okay, so I don't know what this means.  I feel like there's more to the story than what you and Lar have shared.

I have already turned down a half dozen requests from kids we dont know and counting.....so we are "selecting". Plus the League usually has a few stragglers from surrounding areas with no home that we take in....but not this season. We are full at 32.

--Requests?  What does a request have to do with anything?  You practice (or have try-outs) from this date to that date.  End of discussion.  Not sure what "requests" has to do with this.

Decided to create an atmosphere strictly for those that have earned it.

--Again, so what's the criteria?  "Earned it?"  What does that mean.  Explain it to me, because I'm not at your practices.

If they didn't have a MPR I'd probably take a different approach. The whole MP thing wears on me over time for a number of reasons.

--Why?

It becomes entitlement for some even though I probably do a better job of managing rosters than most.

--Entitlement?  Let me give an example:  If to play on our team you had to be able to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, jog 6,000 miles across the United States and back and stand on one leg for 36 hours, then no one who completes this (regardless of talent) comes across as entitled.  They earned it.  There's no way someone who's completed all that hasn't earned it.  On the other hand, if your only criteria for playing on your team is a sign-up, then I can understand how you'd get plenty of players with all sorts of issues (entitlement issues and others).  Those players aren't vested.  And there's no reason they should be vested.  They didn't have to earn anything or work for it.  How can you expect a player to learn how to work for something and appreciate it when you don't hold him to that criteria?

It also falls painfully short as a disciplinary thing because I cant fully bench a kid in season without a bunch of drama.

--I don't understand how that can be, either.  So at the beginning of the season at your parents meeting when your parents agree to how you determine when players are benched, then they change on you when it really happens?  I've never had that experience once we started our meetings.  Had that issue before we had meetings, but not since then.

Maybe I need to be a HS Coach...or retire and why the decision was made to treat this as a full cut team....legally.

--I dunno what being a HS Coach has to do with it.  I'm a HS Coach and I don't cut kids; never have.  You're a youth coach and have figured out how to do it. 

--I don't have an issue with you cutting players; it's your team.  What I don't understand is the reasons you give for cutting players.

--Dave


FYI....Its difficult to respond to a multiple question post when you embed. As an Admin I can clean cut and paste your Posts....not sure if others can? Just a thought.

There is really nothing more too it than this....we are an Independent team with certain latitudes when it comes to rostering. The League has two methods of rostering teams....In House and Independent. By going Independent we pay for everything required to field a team and you have to be invited.

So...we have a handful of players playing dress up and only care about the uniform meaning they only want to be a part of something without putting in the work. This season my answer to that since we pay for everything is that I am not giving you a jersey this time.

Its just that simple. The reasoning goes back many years.

You are a HS Coach with the power to play whomever you want. When you were a youth coach you had to play everyone. Big difference. Its not about cutting....its about the MPR which for me is a necessary evil at the youth levels and something that does not exist thereafter.

As far as entitlements....in a perfect World everyone will tow the line..eventually. A few...given many chances and choices....fail. But they are entitled once they pay to play. So this Spring season I am in a situation where I can say enough....so enough and good luck.

Nothing more to it than that especially given their age. Time to grow up. Would I take this path with a bunch of 5th graders?...never.

Hope that makes sense. Its harsh....its selfish...its not what coaches do....I get that but that it where Im at right now with this Group. They have earned the right not to have to deal with slackers anymore. That came to fruition last Fall with one of our Spring cuts. Kids were done with this f-up and it got a bit testy at times.
 

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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2018, 12:02:01 PM »
What I don't understand is the reasons you give for cutting players.

Here you go. We don't have a crucible at the beginning of the season. We do, however make it very clear what the standards and expectations are for our team. That's our Kilimanjaro. For these few, not understanding the expectations is not the issue. They understand, but until now the consequences haven't been severe enough. That's on us.

The reason for cutting 5 kids was willful, habitual and demonstrated refusal to adhere to team expectations.

One talked his way back in. The fact that he didn't take getting cut lying down says a lot, and is why he'll be coming back.

One got my endorsement based on his play in the Fall. He asked to play o-line and I took him. all 85lbs of him. He rewarded us by setting the standard for technique and playing with the heart of a lion. I don't know if I can play him on the o-line this Spring. If that's the case, he'll have to show the same dedication and heart in a position he would rather not play (WR). If he craps the bed, I'll never hear the end of it.

One is on IR, so that problem fixed itself.

One quit, so that problem also fixed itself.

That leaves one kid who I half expect to be on the team because he may have registered before we could have "the talk".
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Offline mahonz

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2018, 12:07:18 PM »


That leaves one kid who I half expect to be on the team because he may have registered before we could have "the talk".

I caught up with him last night. He is done.
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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2018, 12:14:45 PM »
When I coached select- with NO MPRS it was a totally different equation

Agree. That's why I wanted to be forthcoming.

What might surprise you is that our Spring competition has been select from the beginning. Nothing illegal. Totally on the up and up. They poach, snipe, whatever you want to call it. A few teams in our Spring league are just "sad sacks", using the Spring to get better in the Fall. Most have talent that is comparable to middle to upper D2. Right around where we were the last few seasons (not including this Fall, though). There are probably 3 teams who have D1 talent . . . better than us. Well, maybe not this Spring, but at least equal to us.

The big difference is coaching. Most of these teams are coached by AC's who want to try "their stuff" away from their HC. It doesn't go very well for them. Our chief competition was a Vegas tournament team. After their 2016 Vegas tournament, the AC got into a spat with their HC and started his own team, taking about half the team. We beat the "breakaway" team by 30. They refused to play their old team and forfeited. The old team fell apart this Fall. The talent on that team, from what I've heard will be going to the "breakaway" team, leaving the rest to fend for themselves as a "leftover" team.
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Offline angalton

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2018, 02:11:25 PM »
Try having a team of twelve and five that don't want anything to do with contact. They will do anything but contact. Very frustrating, very. This was just the most weird season I have ever faced. 🙄
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2018, 04:22:42 PM »
Try having a team of twelve and five that don't want anything to do with contact. They will do anything but contact. Very frustrating, very. This was just the most weird season I have ever faced.

This is what I've found, Eric.  You can either speak kid's language, or you can't.  If you can, you can get them to want to do things they'd otherwise never want to do, but now they do.  If you can't speak their language, then you can't get them to eat a pizza even if they are starving.  And if you can't speak their language, it's not their fault that they don't understand you.

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Offline davecisar

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2018, 04:29:08 PM »
This is what I've found, Eric.  You can either speak kid's language, or you can't.  If you can, you can get them to want to do things they'd otherwise never want to do, but now they do.  If you can't speak their language, then you can't get them to eat a pizza even if they are starving.  And if you can't speak their language, it's not their fault that they don't understand you.

--Dave

Dave

The deal is a bit different if you have just 12 at the youth level IMO

The parents have you by the short hairs- you lose 2 kids and your season is over
Seen lots of guys who dont invest enough time in getting good roster numbers and get put between a rock and hard place with this one
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2018, 04:44:58 PM »
Its not about cutting....its about the MPR which for me is a necessary evil at the youth levels and something that does not exist thereafter.

Okay, but I'll you my opinion why the MPR rule is so great for youth ball (and keep I mind that I dealt with the rule for 12 years as a youth header and 3 more years as a youth AC).  Because the kid has to play, he is more likely to get coached.  And the best coaches will invest an inordinate amount of time coaching up that MPR so that Fat Freddy doesn't cost the team the game when he gets his 4/6/8/10/12 plays, or whatever.  So that kid gets coached.  If it were the same kid playing school ball, since he doesn't have to play (no MPR rule), he's not going to get coached.  The coach won't "waste" time coaching him because he knows he doesn't have to play him.  And why spend time coaching a kid who won't play?  And then the coach says to himself during a game, "Gosh, I can't put Fat Freddy in the game, he'll kill our chances."  And the coach will be right, because he never bothered to coach up Fat Freddy.  So Fat Freddy just sits, never plays and worse, never gets coached.

This year, I had one AC.  We coached every player, but not at once.  2 coaches...38 players.  But we coached whoever got the reps.  And the players decided who got those reps.

At high school, I don't cut.  I don't even determine who gets reps at practice.  For years, I've used the "Give me 11" approach where we go with the first 11 to line up.  About 7 years ago, Michael and I were talking about this approach and ways to take it.  So (as most conversations on the phone with Michael tend to go), he really gives you a lot to consider; a lot to think about.  I continued to use and experiment with the "Give me 11" approach.  It coincided with our "If you want in, get in" approach, which included fighting to get in the drill; or in this case, fighting to get in the line up.  This year, I can honestly tell you that our players determined who got reps, and who didn't.  If a player got "tapped out" by another player to replace him (for a rep, or several), the "tapped out" player might go get water and watch for a while, or he might go "tap out" someone else at another position and get reps there.  But it's something our players determine and whoever gets the most reps during the week, is the player that starts on gameday, no ifs, ands or buts.  I'm not saying that's the way every coach should do it; just saying that it's the way we do it.

--Dave

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 05:41:10 PM by CoachDP »
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2018, 04:46:42 PM »
The deal is a bit different if you have just 12 at the youth level IMO

The parents have you by the short hairs- you lose 2 kids and your season is over
Seen lots of guys who dont invest enough time in getting good roster numbers and get put between a rock and hard place with this one

DC, whether you've got 12 or 1200, if they don't want to follow you, then you won't lead them anywhere.  If they want to follow you, they'll jump off a cliff just because you said to.

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Offline angalton

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2018, 04:53:40 PM »
I lost 8 right before the season, from injury or they realize they didn't want to play football. 5 we're injuries and 3 straight up quit. I wish I could have spoke their language to get them to do it, but I just couldn't. They would do contact and practice if I was close, but if I walked away they would go back to nothing.
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2018, 05:02:55 PM »
But they are entitled once they pay to play.

Okay.  My only experience as a youth coach came in PW.  A player could not be on the practice field until he had paid (and signed all the forms).  But even if they paid, PW specified that if a kid said "no mas" then he had to be taken off the field.  He also had to receive a certain number of conditioning hours in order to receive pads, have contact, etc.  If he's not doing the drill (and for us, if the drill is climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro), then he's not receiving his conditioning hours, so he can't receive a uniform, participate in contact, etc.  Add to that, I had a Parents Meeting where parents were told that even if the PW rules didn't exist, all of the players would have to participate in and complete our drills and those who did not participate/complete would not be issued gear because it simply wasn't fair to the players who had completed the criteria, for the players who didn't complete it, to still be able to participate.  No parent ever challenged me on this; it never was an issue and every parent understood.  In the times that a player didn't want to complete the drill, the parent never took issue with me.  They understood the PW rules as well as the example in fairness that I had explained at the Parents Meeting.  If I was selective in who had to participate and/or complete the drills, then yes there would have been conflict/drama/hurt feelings.  But we never had any of that because the parents had already had it explained to them and more importantly, every player had to participate in our process.

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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2018, 05:08:20 PM »
I wish I could have spoke their language to get them to do it, but I just couldn't.

So do I, Eric.  With some kids, I do.  With others, I don't.  And when I don't, there are few things more frustrating than that.  When we were having our post-season Parent/Player meetings, my AC and I discovered a "primary language issue" that we'd had with a star player.  We didn't learn to speak his language until after the season ended.  Ugh...BUT...now we know who he is and how to relate to him. 

There are players out there who'll follow me off the roof of a building for no other reason than I speak their language.  And there are kids who I've never figured out how to speak to and wouldn't follow me across the street.  It's tough.  It's a challenge.  But if you can do it, you'll be the Pied Piper.

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Offline mahonz

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2018, 05:25:53 PM »
Okay, but I'll you my opinion why the MPR rule is so great for youth ball (and keep I mind that I dealt with the rule for 12 years as a youth header and 3 more years as a youth AC).  Because the kid has to play, he is more likely to get coached.  And the best coaches will invest an inordinate amount of time coaching up that MPR so that Fat Freddy doesn't cost the team the game when he gets his 4/6/8/10/12 plays, or whatever.  So that kid gets coached.  If it were the same kid playing school ball, since he doesn't have to play (no MPR rule), he's not going to get coached.  The coach won't "waste" time coaching him because he knows he doesn't have to play him.  And why spend time coaching a kid who won't play?  And then the coach says to himself during a game, "Gosh, I can't put Fat Freddy in the game, he'll kill our chances."  And the coach will be right, because he never bothered to coach up Fat Freddy.  So Fat Freddy just sits, never plays and worse, never gets coached.

At high school, I don't cut.  I don't even determine who gets reps at practice.  For years, I've used the "Give me 11" approach where we go with the first 11 to line up.  About 7 years ago, Michael and I were talking about this approach and ways to take it.  So (as most conversations on the phone with Michael tend to go), he really gives you a lot to consider; a lot to think about.  I continued to use and experiment with the "Give me 11" approach.  It coincided with our "If you want in, get in" approach, which included fighting to get in the drill; or in this case, fighting to get in the line up.  This year, I can honestly tell you that our players determined who got reps, and who didn't.  If a player got "tapped out" by another player to replace him (for a rep, or several), the "tapped out" player might go get water and watch for a while, or he might go "tap out" someone else at another position and get reps there.  But it's something our players determine and whoever gets the most reps during the week, is the player that starts on gameday, no ifs, ands or buts.  I'm not saying that's the way every coach should do it; just saying that it's the way we do it.

--Dave

Oh Im with you...completely.

I just wear down after 3 or 4 years with some that rarely if ever give back. The thing about my League's Format is we spend 6 or 7 years with the same team....same kids....same parents....for the most part.  90% of the time really great things happen during that time to include life long friendships. Its the other 10% that pisses me off. Lazy, no effort, im entitled, its about me....bullchit.

And it gets worse with every passing year.  So last month I decided I was done with that 10% because I could. So I did and now Im happy they cant drive me nuts this Spring.

There comes a point when you cant "speak" to them all. Next year I start the entire process all over again with Super Smurfs.

Oh....happy...day.  :) Im only doing it for one reason and one reason only. My youngest Grandson. I even turned down an opportunity to take anyone on our Staff to coach Freshman HS ball. I seriously think I've lost my mind.  8)
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Offline CoachDP

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2018, 05:38:34 PM »
Im only doing it for one reason and one reason only. My youngest Grandson.

Well, I'm glad you get to coach your grandson; that's certainly a special opportunity.  But I'm hoping that you don't literally mean that the "only" reason you're coaching that group is because of him.  There's a wealth a treasures there just waiting to be uncovered.  Have a look.

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Offline gumby_in_co

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Re: 2018 Spring Preview
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2018, 10:42:44 PM »
Well, I'm glad you get to coach your grandson; that's certainly a special opportunity.  But I'm hoping that you don't literally mean that the "only" reason you're coaching that group is because of him.  There's a wealth a treasures there just waiting to be uncovered.  Have a look.

--Dave

Forgive me for speaking for Mike, but I think hes saying that but for his grandson, hed retire.
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